drH wrote:If you're pulling multiple shots, both machines will heat up and produce bitter brews. If you haven't yet, take a look at the old cremina temperature study threads.
Essentially if you pull a shot after 30minutes idle, the temperature should be right (for the Cremina). After a shot, fully cool off the portafilter and let it stabilize in the group for 3-5 minutes.

A digital thermometer on the group will make things much easier for both machines.

Black cat is a Dark-ish espresso so keep your preinfusion to a minimum...adjust your grind so that you can start pulling after just a couple seconds.

Hey
Thanks for the info. I rarely pull multiple shots in a row from either machine. I know from experience that the La Pavoni will over heat quickly.
Is preinfusion the time that the lever is pulled all the way up? How long do you normally have the lever up like that? I will look it up by always interested in getting as much info as possible.
Thank you

Yes, preinfusion is when the lever is up. For very light Nordic roasts I usually hold it 15-20 seconds. Typically it's around 10 seconds for a medium roast. For darker roasts <5seconds or as soon as I judge that the group is full.

I give up.
I've put aside the Cremina for now.
I cannot get a decent espresso out of the La Pavoni. I've tried different size grinds and a bunch of different times that I've preinfused etc. I use 14g each time. I will probably go back to sh**ty store bought espresso for a while until I get over this frustration.

I'm sorry to hear that. If you are willing to post some videos maybe we can help diagnose further.
I can't help but think there is something simple we are collectively missing here, because it's certainly possible to pull great shots with both of these machines. I wonder if you can have someone with experience stop over and run a few shots with you; also to make sure the machines are behaving as expected.

I should also say.. if you really do decide that your lever adventure has come to an end, you'd have no trouble turning the Cremina and Pavoni into enough cash to buy a PID pump machine and probably a nice grinder.

I inherited the La Pavoni from my father and I can still make a decent espresso with the trader joes espresso. So I'm not going to get rid of that. I just wish I could get the espresso to taste as good as the Intelligentsia beans smell.

The Olympia Cremina is technically a friends. He asked me to fix it and said that I could keep it as long as I don't sell it.

I will probably get over the frustration when I have more time. I remember going through this frustration the first time I tried to rebuild a carburetor.

Thanks to all for the help.

I know from experience that the La Pavoni will over heat quickly

Depends on the model. Generation 2 models overheat very quickly. With the "steam to water conversion mod" much it gets better. These machines benefit greatly from cooling ribs for the added thermal mass. Just do not like the looks.

Generation 3 models (post Millennium) are less prone to overheating by far. And you can add Bong's isolator. This combination is great as the idele group temperature is below target. That means you have to bring it up to your desired target temp after a long idle period. This can be done with "dry pumps": circulating the water between boiler and group without flushing. Every dry pump raises the group a couple of degrees. Hence temperature profiling is no problem.

Generation 3 Pavoni's with Bong's isolator work best. Between the sleeve and cylinder wall stays water at group temperature acting as a "mini boiler". This water makes up for 2/3 of the pull volume meaning that the group only needs to cool down 1/3 of super heated boiler water compared to 3/3 in the case of generation 2 machines. The result is a very flat curve without a huge hump at the beginning of the pull.

The differences between the Pavoni models and mods means there is a big variation in behaviour and performance. Much bigger than the Cremina's where the group has stayed more or less the same over the years. Of course the teflon gasket makes a difference and can be installed on vintage machines as well.

I prefer a Cremina over generation 2 Pavoni's without any doubt. But I prefer my generation 3 Pavoni with stainless steel sleeve upgrade and Bong's isolator over Cremina. Althought I like the looks and value the solid construction of the Olympia. A Cremina with the modded Pavoni group (generation 3 grouphead with stainless steel sleeve upgrade and Bong's isolator) would be the perfect combination

Interesting- I didn't know about the Bong isolator, thanks.

bas wrote:Depends on the model. Generation 2 models overheat very quickly. With the "steam to water conversion mod" much it gets better. These machines benefit greatly from cooling ribs for the added thermal mass. Just do not like the looks.

Generation 3 models (post Millennium) are less prone to overheating by far. And you can add Bong's isolator. This combination is great as the idele group temperature is below target. That means you have to bring it up to your desired target temp after a long idle period. This can be done with "dry pumps": circulating the water between boiler and group without flushing. Every dry pump raises the group a couple of degrees. Hence temperature profiling is no problem.

Generation 3 Pavoni's with Bong's isolator work best. Between the sleeve and cylinder wall stays water at group temperature acting as a "mini boiler". This water makes up for 2/3 of the pull volume meaning that the group only needs to cool down 1/3 of super heated boiler water compared to 3/3 in the case of generation 2 machines. The result is a very flat curve without a huge hump at the beginning of the pull.

The differences between the Pavoni models and mods means there is a big variation in behaviour and performance. Much bigger than the Cremina's where the group has stayed more or less the same over the years. Of course the teflon gasket makes a difference and can be installed on vintage machines as well.

I prefer a Cremina over generation 2 Pavoni's without any doubt. But I prefer my generation 3 Pavoni with stainless steel sleeve upgrade and Bong's isolator over Cremina. Althought I like the looks and value the solid construction of the Olympia. A Cremina with the modded Pavoni group (generation 3 grouphead with stainless steel sleeve upgrade and Bong's isolator) would be the perfect combination

Wow. I'm not going to try to fake it. That is way over my head. Maybe I will understand that in the future?
But THANKS!

Here is my latest update.

I went down to the local Coffee shop in NYC. It's called Porto Rico, been here forever.
I purchased some of their Italian Espresso beans.

I've been adjusting the grind and amount and how tight I pack it in the portafilter.

As of now I am getting a good espresso out of the La Pavoni, could be better but pretty damn good.

I got a barely drinkable espresso from the Cremina.

I am currently descaling the Cremina and will try again.

Thanks!