Nurri Leva S. A. - Page 18

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Primacog

#171: Post by Primacog »

bakafish wrote: 
Although the steam pressure drops quickly, I don't have any problem steaming milk. Steaming 200ml milk can be completed in 10 seconds and the quality (mouth feel) is even better than it from my Lelit Bianca V1 which has almost infinite steaming power.
 

The first could be wrong. The water cools down and the PID responds quickly. Instead, the pressurestat has a range. For example, if you use a pressurestat which range is 1.2 bar to 1.5 bar, when the boiler reaches 1.5 bar, it stops heating the boiler and wait for the boiler cooling to 1.2 bar to start heating again. If you steam milk during heating, the heating element will keep working with full power, but if you steam milk during cooling, the heating element will not work until the pressure drops to the lower limit of the range of the pressurestat.

A good PID should have the parameter called "proportional range", like below in the Lelit Bianca's PID manual. But I did not see this paratemer in my Nurri Leva.
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Lelit Bianca has dual PID, so it has different parameters for both boilers. Bc is used on the coffee boiler and the Bs is used on the steam boiler, so it can give full power to the heating element of the steam boiler immediately when you use steam. The 220V Lelit Bianca V1 has a 1.5L steam boiler with a 1400W heating element.

I had contact Antonio about the PID firmware update. He said they are almost ready to update the firmware of the L-Type. It will involve only the independent option to change PID parameters for each probe.

At first I think a PID can have only one set of parameters, but I could be wrong according to Antonio. Let's see how it goes.
Glad to know that Antonio ans you are in communication.

Sorry if i am displaying again my lack of technical knowledge, but i was under the impression that the Proportional range value is typically the P value in a PID? If so then I think the following video showed how the P value can be changed in a nurri...as i undrstand what the firmware update will do is to improve further the pid menu to make it possible to program entirely different P, I and D values independently for the grouphead, brew boiler and steam boiler - i.e. to make yhe pid behave like three pids.
LMWDP #729

bakafish

#172: Post by bakafish »

Primacog wrote:Sorry if i am displaying again my lack of technical knowledge, but i was under the impression that the Proportional range value is typically the P value in a PID?
No. Please read the PID manual of the Lelit Bianca in my previous post. The parameter is °C. I remember that the ACS Evo Leva also has this parameter.

Primacog

#173: Post by Primacog replying to bakafish »

Did you ask Antonio abour it? Maybe he can enlighten on this.
LMWDP #729

coffeeOnTheBrain

#174: Post by coffeeOnTheBrain »

bakafish wrote: 
...
At first I think a PID can have only one set of parameters, but I could be wrong according to Antonio. Let's see how it goes.
...
The more sophisticated a PID gets the more complicated it gets. Imagine a PID for a electric motor of a car, they have a whole set of PID parameters depending e.g. on the speed or the load (going uphill or downhill), as well as driver inputs like pedal position.
The sets are referred to as lookup tables.
bakafish wrote: 
...
A good PID should have the parameter called "proportional range", like below in the Lelit Bianca's PID manual. But I did not see this paratemer in my Nurri Leva.
...
The "proportional range" is usually used for start up so that the boiler gets heated with full power. The biggest mistake is to use a "proportional range" that is too close to the target temperature as that can interfere with the I-value not reaching a high enough value to stabilize the temperature at the target.
If I am not mistaken the "proportional range" parameter lead to some mistuned ACS Evo Leva after a discussion in that thread.
Given the information above using a second set of parameters, one for startup and one for the target temp can be superior to using the "proportional range" parameter, but I highly doubt it makes a difference which of the 2 is used.
So both solutions if well tuned are better than a single set of PID values.

jontyc

#175: Post by jontyc »

Primacog wrote:To be exact im seeing 0.3 to 0.4 bar drops over 10 seconds, not 0.5 bar. However the temp drop is similar which is about 2 degrees. Would the fact that the izzo has a 5 litre boiler va the 1.8 litre one on the nurri make that difference? (The izzo also must have had a pretty powerful element in the boiler because mine required a 220v 15A circuit.
Yep, you snapshotted my post before I corrected it. But 0.3 bar is probably more like it, with the precisions and accuracies of the displays and sensors.

Izzo boiler size was more about the thermal stability. Great for steam of course because of the energy stored in such a large volume.I've got a 1750W in my Valexia, I think yours was 1950W if it was a 1 group (I went to buy a Pompeii 2 group once). So powerful, but nothing special for the volume of water it's handling.

jontyc

#176: Post by jontyc »

cyclezib wrote:I really don't understand this concern with steaming. Let me vent (pun intended)?
The machine does a fantastic job of steaming a pitcher of milk suitable for a couple of Cappuccinos.
I've yet to read anyone say that they are failing to steam their milk in fast enough time, nor getting it to proper temperature.

My take on the comments is that they are all hypothetical concerns with thermodynamics and have nothing to do with what is happening in the home.

Lastly, the focus on steaming aside, how about discussing the excellent taste of espresso this machine yields?
Your experience in the home is not necessarily representative either. You could be on 110V - that can have implications. A Nurri in Australia had a PID so wild it had to get sent back. Baka and Primacog indicated large drops in pressure. People described the Synchronika as having fantastic steaming, and it was, for beginners, just about impossible to not get silky milk. But it was an big underperformer for larger volumes, cured by a simple tip replacement. The Izzo also benefitted from an aftermarket tip - with Primacog indicating his struggles there with the stock tip.

Hypotheticals exist due to lack of other information, typical for a new machine and are arguably more representative than the rare anecdote. The great thing is that discussion flushes out experiences like yours and Vierne's, which I thank you both for adding.

I had to wait 4 weeks for a tip for the Sync to be delivered - if I can sort certain things out while my Nurri is still 6 weeks away, I shall.

Dela

#177: Post by Dela »

Hi guys,
jumping in fresh from registration to this thread, found mainly because I am in talk with Antonio regarding the Leva. I know this questions lands amidst other discussions, but I hope to join the discussion none the less.

I was never looking for a Lever machine, but stumbled on to the Leva by happy accident when looking at the upcoming GTO, and now can't really shed the thought of not going with a lever machine over e.g. Decent, Bianca V3, GTO etc.

I saw Lance Hedriks review on the ACS Vostok L as well, and suddenly I am really in doubt what to go for!? I have read this entire thread, and patents and such aside, it seems a lot of the functionalities are identical. From a personal preference, the Nurri has a better/simpler design, and I like the paddle thing over the button pressure release on the ACS. But other than that, extremely identical in size, functionality, warm-up time etc.

Have any of you that hasn't bought the Nurri yet, but consider it, had the same considerations?

Primacog

#178: Post by Primacog »

jontyc wrote:Your experience in the home is not necessarily representative either. You could be on 110V - that can have implications. A Nurri in Australia had a PID so wild it had to get sent back. Baka and Primacog indicated large drops in pressure. People described the Synchronika as having fantastic steaming, and it was, for beginners, just about impossible to not get silky milk. But it was an big underperformer for larger volumes, cured by a simple tip replacement. The Izzo also benefitted from an aftermarket tip - with Primacog indicating his struggles there with the stock tip.

Hypotheticals exist due to lack of other information, typical for a new machine and are arguably more representative than the rare anecdote. The great thing is that discussion flushes out experiences like yours and Vierne's, which I thank you both for adding.

I had to wait 4 weeks for a tip for the Sync to be delivered - if I can sort certain things out while my Nurri is still 6 weeks away, I shall.
Is it even a large drop in pressure for a home machine? I am having some trouble imagining a situarion at home when the steaming capacify of the nurri leva may fall short.
LMWDP #729

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Viernes

#179: Post by Viernes »

Dela wrote:Hi guys,
jumping in fresh from registration to this thread, found mainly because I am in talk with Antonio regarding the Leva. I know this questions lands amidst other discussions, but I hope to join the discussion none the less.

I was never looking for a Lever machine, but stumbled on to the Leva by happy accident when looking at the upcoming GTO, and now can't really shed the thought of not going with a lever machine over e.g. Decent, Bianca V3, GTO etc.

I saw Lance Hedriks review on the ACS Vostok L as well, and suddenly I am really in doubt what to go for!? I have read this entire thread, and patents and such aside, it seems a lot of the functionalities are identical. From a personal preference, the Nurri has a better/simpler design, and I like the paddle thing over the button pressure release on the ACS. But other than that, extremely identical in size, functionality, warm-up time etc.

Have any of you that hasn't bought the Nurri yet, but consider it, had the same considerations?
Hi!

First, I'd check the size difference between both machines. I don't know the exact measures of the Vostok, but it looks massive, at least on the videos.

Btw, you're welcome to our Nurri Club if you are interested. Reach us on Facebook or PM me.

bakafish

#180: Post by bakafish »

Primacog wrote:Is it even a large drop in pressure for a home machine? I am having some trouble imagining a situarion at home when the steaming capacify of the nurri leva may fall short.
10 seconds from 129C to 125C, which is about 0.3 bar.
1 minute from 129C to 119C, which is about 0.7 bar.
I have a ECM Synchronika steam wand with a 2 hole steam tip. The steam tip of ECM Synchronika cannot be installed on the Nurri Leva due to the inner diameter of the ECM steam tip is smaller than the inner tube of the Nurri Leva. The 2 holes diameter is also smaller than Nurri Leva's.