pinkselixir wrote:Hi.

One of the interesting questions is. Kickstarter or not. Thoughts?

Well, having just been burned by Alpha Dominche, I wish companies would finance their businesses the old-fashioned way...themselves.

New business finance is all high risk. friends & family, angels, private placements. Banks only lend against big assets.

Kickstarter is a high risk investment but a legitimate fund raising scheme wherein you get a product instead of equity. But the risk is the same... The problem is the expectations... which is why they are so many regulations associated with raising financing with "sophisticated investor" exceptions.

Unfortunately, the business angle is often not hammered out very well. For instance, I'd like to better understand the value proposition of this product and a justification of its price point. Given that Kickstarter is driven by excitement over a gadget, it's easy to lose sight of those key aspects that are required to get the gadget in the end with a sustainable business model.

Angels would kick the heck out of a business concept until it was all justified.

The safe bet is to wait until a storefront is established and no burning will happen

pinkselixir wrote:Hi.

One of the interesting questions is. Kickstarter or not. Thoughts?

Kickstarter clearly has its attractions, from the standpoint of a new product developer, who needs investment. But it must put a lot of pressure on that developer to deliver a repeatable design on a time-limited basis. So really, its best suited to well-developed products with a small/medium initial market, that need investment just for production tooling, materials and delivery processes. Or those super-rare products where start costs are low and the market very large. Anyone smelling snake oil in this particular neck of the woods, is probably right....Personally, my Kickstarter bets (not investments) are all in that lower individual cost zone,(circa £40 -$50) so that I can live with myself after a loss or two. But maybe I'm just a cheapskate.

There's no such thing as a "safe bet" - the two words don't belong together IMHO. Just probability of failure, or success. Niche have done well to produce a good product for their Kickstarter punters and sadly Alpha Dominche have gone the other road.

However I'm definitely interested in a acquiring a well designed hand operated espresso machine and this one fits the bill. So I'd rather pay the asking price when its available and let you do your own thing regarding start-up costs. My Kinu M68 was seriously expensive for a hand grinder, but well worth it for me and some others. It seems Kinu have a sustainable business, making high quality, hand-operated products, so hopefully you will as well, and the price may need to reflect that.

Hi there. Thanks so much for this high level detailed advice and opinion.

Yes I have been working towards a Kickstarter release. But the videos and photos are mainly general at this stage so I haven't committed to running a campaign yet.

For me it's about known orders for a production run which is the normal reason startups go that way. A known quantity to produce. It's pretty much everything at this point. As you say you can just go direct. Sell them on my website. Collect some orders, and charge when they are made and delivered But Kickstarter is also a large marketing platform to capture the market and increase the exposure worldwide and quantity for startup production.

As you say though Kickstarter maybe not the market for a high value product, high quality, higher cost item like this. A perceived risk may deter people when higher value comes into play. We like to think that the risk is offset in this case by a proven working product making espresso vrs other projects that may be simply campaigning on a idea. So different. From idea to working machine is years. So risk in those scenarios is way way higher than us. It's a thing. It works. We can make it. We have all the parts ready etc etc. The solidworks files and Cnc jigs and machines are ready to roll.

Then also Kickstarter can be a big complicated engine to run. Just making them. Listing the product and selling them is easier. I see other very cool machines like the famous Rossa winder machine (portapresso) did this himself by the looks of it. The only real question then becomes will Kickstarter boost and increase sales and orders on this particular higher end specialised product. Who knows?? Kickstarter has a massive following.

Cheers and thanks. Great insight going forward.

Hi all,,


I did a series of basic videos showing the simple things that have been asked that are hard to explain. Basic things like filling with water, draining tank and making shots at constant 8bar and 12 bar. I thought you might all want to see the level of control with winding speed. Anyone interested to see them?. I will upload to Youtube today hopefully. Also I am planning to do some thermocouple measurements and a video of that this weekend so we can be a bit more precise when we are assessing the heat up and warm-up procedure. Sorry this has taken a while.

It would be helpful if someone can tell me where they would like probe measurements. I have a clever little logger on my roaster with two thermocouple probes inputs. It also logs by time and we can set that to log every 2 seconds or whatever period we want for data graph.

Many thanks and cheers for the support.

Nigel

IMO, I think the best way to bring a niche and high quality product like this to the market is by selling direct and being very active on enthusiast sites like HB around the globe. Get the product in the hands of some of the expert reviewers and it will take off from there if they love it. Brand ambassadors are what you need.

Hi there.

Thanks for advice. Yes I think that's one of the good goals to achieve. Getting some users that know the full range of offerings to have a good look at it. Something to work towards.

Thanks
Nigel

Hi all ,

I managed to get another video up. I Tryed to display the fact you can wind at a speed to get any pressure. This shot was 8bar. Very easy to get. I'm winding quite slow. I'm sure some will say it's not the best shot but just demonstrating its flexibility. Also it's a tad to fast. We put the clock on it for display. I will post the 12 bar shot as well. Just need to get it sorted. Also got some simple videos of filling draining etc to follow.

Thanks
Nigel

Nice. Can you tell us, where the pressure is measured - above or below the coffee valve? If above, then pressure on the top of the puck is lower by the amount of opening pressure of the valve, which as I understood is 0.3-0.5bar. It's probably interesting for those that would like to preinfuse at certain pressure

As about temperature measurements, there are some standardized methods like

WBC Procedure for Measurement of Brewing Water Temperature

However, for me, no need to go very scientific about this, I would be totally satisfied if you mount a probe near the center of shower screen, maybe put some styrofoam cup around for insulation and then crank the handle with speed you usually use for extraction, just to have some feeling what is the top range we can get and how stable it is. Out out several manual machines, only one producer made some measurements and published them on his web site and one made some videos but said it was irrelevant in recent discussion here ...

pinkselixir wrote:It would be helpful if someone can tell me where they would like probe measurements. I have a clever little logger on my roaster with two thermocouple probes inputs. It also logs by time and we can set that to log every 2 seconds or whatever period we want for data graph.

The WBC procedure obviously has some credibility, albeit seems to be based on the well-known Scace device. Directly on the top surface of the puck or puck substitute is a good place and similar to the suggestion by Vit. Maybe its possible to loop a type T thermocouple wire over the edge of the portafilter and seal and ease it into place, to avoid the need for a special basket. Otherwise making a basket mount for the thermocouple has been recorded a few times on H-B. 1 measurement per second or faster, into a data logger, seems a good output.

If you use stick-on thermocouple mounts, on the brewing head, there is then an issue of the temperature difference between that place and the actual water stream. These kind of measurements work well for an E61 or saturated brew group, because the area has had a prolonged continuous heat transfer from the thermosyphon or boiler water. This position may not work well for your design. But you will find that out!