NEW KvdW Lever Group! - Page 6

A haven dedicated to manual espresso machine aficionados.
malling

#51: Post by malling »

gavijal wrote:Not really but ok. I'm asking because I'm in market for one, and I'm thinking does it make sense to pay 4,5 times more for few features.
No probable not for how we typically use it. I can see the features are nice to have in a cafe environment but for a home users I don't think paying 4.5x is truly worth it. We aren't going to pull enough shots that such features is truly meaningful like it would be in more pro environment.

ira
Team HB

#52: Post by ira »

LObin wrote:I guess it depends how important those features are to you.

As far as I know, except the LM leva X, no other commercial lever offer this kind of control over the spring pressure. That's unique.
I'm guessing the control over pressure is quite minimal, only enough to balance the 2 groups so they can be treated as one in a shop setting, at least that's what I got from reading the info on the KVDW pages. Yes it will allow some very limited control over spring height, but not likely enough to consider it a useful way to adjust anything but the group balancing it was designed for.

Ira

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beer&mathematics

#53: Post by beer&mathematics »

Yes, but the Kees designed machines are beautiful and the ACS stuff is....how to put this nicely?...just ok

The features of the new group would be the first main selling point, the aesthetics would be the second IMO. Once you spend over 5k all machine will likely be capable so you really need to think hard about the first two points. Once you decide that this hobby is an addiction, you really want to buy the machine you love to look at, since you'll eventually end up with it.
LMWDP #431

gavijal

#54: Post by gavijal »

I'm shopping for a speciality coffee shop I'm planning to open at spring. So Vostok don have a adjustable springs, but they can install like 6 bar spring in one group. Don't have a shot timer, and groups are 54 mm. But I can get 2 group one for less then 4k euros. This one and LM leva x are around 16-18 k range, so I'm thinking out loud are they so much better to justify 12-14 k more cost which I can spend to grinders and loads of equipment.

Chainline

#55: Post by Chainline »

JohnB. wrote:Base price for the 2 group Slim Jim Idrocompresso is 16,500 Euro/$18,800. Options can easily add another 1000 Euro.
OR indeed £=€, you can run to another 3k in options without too much trouble!

Lovely though. Wondering where I could put one and what to tell my wife if it turned up..

Steveholt

#56: Post by Steveholt »

Does that suggest there might be one maybe on the way :lol:

malling

#57: Post by malling »

gavijal wrote:I'm shopping for a speciality coffee shop I'm planning to open at spring. So Vostok don have a adjustable springs, but they can install like 6 bar spring in one group. Don't have a shot timer, and groups are 54 mm. But I can get 2 group one for less then 4k euros. This one and LM leva x are around 16-18 k range, so I'm thinking out loud are they so much better to justify 12-14 k more cost which I can spend to grinders and loads of equipment.
No they are not that much better, because nothing in this coffee world is. Your paying for exclusivity, name, craftsmanship, features and diminishing returns but none of that is going to revolutionise espresso as in regards to be x better, different perhaps but better no, at this point we are well within diminishing returns. Some are willingly to spend that sort extra on that, just as some people are on the grinder front, but it's nuances in differences as all a pretty capable and hardly any customers would really care or notice anyway, and your unlikely to ever meet a customer who would walk away because you did not have any of the other.

This isn't as much about justification, but more about if you want what these offer or if your fine without, most would probably fall in the second category. This is fundamentally more nice to have then need to have.

I seen shops who have the LM and they hardly used it's features, reality is that although it might be nice to have a machine that can do all sorts of wizardry the questions is are you actually ever going to use and take advantage of it especially in a rushed environment. The answer to that will in most cases be no, the majority of any machines I seen that can profile shots (And I typically ask when I see it) is that it's rarely ever used to a high extent, it's more been set and forget, because in a rushed environment is perhaps not what you want to spend your precious time on. There has been few times where I seen it used, but those where relatively quiet places with allot less and more geeky customers and even then they didn't bother with it all the time. But in reality only you can answer that question, because it comes down to you and your employees. I can only tell what I seen practiced out in the real world.

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espressotime

#58: Post by espressotime »

EddyQ wrote:I've got a 2 group Mirage. Picked it up used almost exactly 2 years ago. I've never seen a single group. To be honest, I like the two groups. One is adjusted 2deg C cooler than the other and useful for dark/light coffee switching. Plus, I can pull a shot on one while replacing the piston seals of the other.
Piston seal replacement takes 10 minutes. You can't go 10 minutes without coffee every 10 years or so? :mrgreen:

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espressotime

#59: Post by espressotime »

EddyQ wrote:The Mirage is a pretty big box and those groups stand far too tall for under a counter. So the machine needs its own counter. But once you have that, it isn't taking much space from a room. As you say, a single group version, if one existed, wouldn't be a lot different. Maybe 6" off the width?

As I said earlier, I really like having two groups. But there are a few downsides. First, you got twice as many things that can go wrong. Second, you got twice the maintenance/repair bill.

Simple things like lubing the gaskets or replacing gaskets is twice. And even though you don't use a group, the gaskets seem to go just as fast (although the silicone ones I now have are not wearing out, but need lube them every 3 months). But since the Kees machines are designed for commercial use, the repair is really simple and quick. I never shut it down to do work on a group. And it has a nice ball valve for draining the boiler if needed. The steam wand valve seals can be serviced while the boiler is up to pressure as well. But I never shut it off. The heater is 3300W and comes on 6sec every minute. So the average power is like 330W. That is pretty high for electrical usage. A single group likely will be less and likely take less energy to warm. So you might get away with shutting it down between use. But other than summer, the higher electric costs is offset somewhat by lower gas heating bill.

I find the machine isn't aging a bit. It is 8 years old and doesn't look more than a day old.
Still don see the advantage of atwo group machine unless you regularly have 6 people at the same time wanting coffee.

Chainline

#60: Post by Chainline »

I think it's fair to say it's highly likely within this year, lead time is around 12 weeks. :D