New domestic lever espresso machine with commercial group - Page 7

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sorrentinacoffee

#61: Post by sorrentinacoffee » Aug 15, 2012, 11:03 pm

My own experiences mirror peacecup jack's. There seems to be a direct link to diameter of basket and ease of tamping... I have had the privilege to try out numerous commercial 58mm groups, and domestic 49mm and 45mm groups. The rule holds across the board- the smaller the easier- and as PC says, the 45mm baskets used on the PV machines are almost idiot proof. It is a simple matter to dial the grind and tamp in- and even if it is out you get decent results. Channeling is an unheard of issue with the PV. Larger baskets require more attention to the grind and tamp and slight errors can result in very poor shots. However there is no doubt that a commercial group produces a larger and potentially richer shot... but I wouldn't say it is necessarily better- just different.

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michaelbenis

#62: Post by michaelbenis » Aug 16, 2012, 3:11 am

I'd agree that the taller, narrower baskets are more forgiving, but not without trade-offs....
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RoloD

#63: Post by RoloD » Aug 30, 2012, 10:58 am

JohnB. wrote:Sounds like your describing the Bezzera Strega??
A spirited explanation on the Londinium blog today about why this machine is NOT like the Strega:
The pump on L1 is NOT pumping water into the group as it does on the Strega, it is only driven in with the head of pressure in the boiler and the extraction is only achieved with the force of the spring, in the traditional manner... If anyone thinks we would embark on this project to make a machine 'like a Strega', or indeed any other machine, you surely haven't met us. The market is already full of espresso machines; we have no interest in adding another that does much the same thing.
http://londiniumespresso.com/blogs/lond ... resso-blog

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JohnB.
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#64: Post by JohnB. » Aug 30, 2012, 11:39 am

I never said that they were building a Strega copy. I was referring to your post with the following quote.
RoloD wrote:But up to now there hasn't been a home machine with a full professional lever group, fast warm up time, temperature stability and reasonable dimensions and price.
The Strega matches that description perfectly & I was simply pointing out that the statement wasn't true. By the way Bezzera did offer a version of the Strega with no pump, group filled by line pressure only, but evidently there wasn't much demand as I no longer see it on their website.
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RoloD

#65: Post by RoloD » Aug 30, 2012, 11:42 am

Fair comment - and I stand corrected.

I've never actually seen a Strega - they are incredibly rare in the UK - so my comment was ill-informed.

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yakster
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#66: Post by yakster » Aug 30, 2012, 1:50 pm

I wonder if the Londinium will be as rare in the US, I hope not, even though I have no plans to upgrade at this time.
-Chris

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RoloD

#67: Post by RoloD » Aug 30, 2012, 2:32 pm

Probably not, as Londinium will be selling direct to customers worldwide. The Bezzera distributor in the UK doesn't actually distribute the Strega.

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RapidCoffee
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#68: Post by RapidCoffee » Aug 30, 2012, 2:47 pm

michaelbenis wrote:I'd agree that the taller, narrower baskets are more forgiving...
sorrentinacoffee wrote:The rule holds across the board- the smaller the easier...
Apologies in advance for the OT post:
This has not been my experience. The 49mm/51mm double baskets on home levers (Pavoni, Elektra MCaL, Gaggia Factory) do not produce particularly beautiful pours with bottomless PFs. I've learned to live with the 53mm double basket on my Spaz S1, but it's probably my biggest gripe about the machine. In addition, I have always found taller 58mm triple baskets to be more susceptible to channeling than doubles, not less.

I think there are good reasons why the larger 58mm basket size has evolved as the de facto standard for commercial espresso machines.
John

jonny

#69: Post by jonny » Aug 30, 2012, 3:54 pm

I am a bit surprised that Reiss is so passionately against the Strega! I have never used a Strega or even seen one in person, but his statements do sound a little exaggerated. Like it uses a pump because of the "no guts spring"? I'm pretty sure the pump has nothing to do with the spring, only replaces what would be line pressure in a plumbed in hx lever machine. Again, I don't own a Strega, so no hurt feelings here, but I become wary of companies that are so enthusiastically against a "competitor" in every way (especially one with decent acceptance by the market, us). It always makes me feel less trusting of the company since they only see their product as perfect in every way and their competition as fatally flawed. Thinking what they are selling to be perfect is fine and good, but saying nothing about a competing product except to bash on it, is a little too aggressive on the offense. This kind of behavior is expected from corporate business models. I usually find a little more respect in small companies. He is a little aggressive on the defense too. Maybe Reiss sincerely does hate everything about the Strega, and that's fine, but it just comes off a little 'salesy.' Just the feeling I personally get from this behavior, whether it is a tactic or not. Maybe I'm just being a little sensitive. All this said, I am still sure the Londinium 1 will be an exceptional machine, and I have no doubt it will come out on top of Strega. On the other hand it is awesome to have a person that is so passionate about exceptional coffee producing equipment getting his hands dirty and making a top quality machine. These are the people we need making our stuff!
RapidCoffee wrote:Apologies in advance for the OT post:
This has not been my experience. The 49mm/51mm double baskets on home levers (Pavoni, Elektra MCaL, Gaggia Factory) do not produce particularly beautiful pours with bottomless PFs. I've learned to live with the 53mm double basket on my Spaz S1, but it's probably my biggest gripe about the machine. In addition, I have always found taller 58mm triple baskets to be more susceptible to channeling than doubles.

I think there are good reasons why the larger 58mm basket size has evolved as the default standard for commercial espresso machines.
I can't say much to this since I have little experience on 58 mm machines, but I have used a 49 mm (Livietta) for a couple years, and once everything is dialed in (grinder as well as 9 bar brew pressure), as long as I don't overdose, I have no problem getting perfect extractions with a simple dose, tap down, strike off excess, tamp, and pull routine. I could see though how a deeper puck would be less forgiving though since it has a larger variance of depth from start to finish. i.e. a percentage of swell of a deeper puck will increase the depth more than the same percentage on a shallow puck. So, with narrower, deeper baskets, you have to start with more headspace since the coffee will expand more. On the other hand, I could see how a wider coffee puck would be more susceptible to fractures. Really the only gripe I personally have about 49 mm groups is that their aren't baskets that allow more than about 15 grams. For this and availability and cost of 58 mm accessories, I wish I had a standard 58 mm grouphead.

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Londinium Espresso

#70: Post by Londinium Espresso » Aug 30, 2012, 5:08 pm

I apologise Jonny,

My post was not a response to anything posted on HB

Reiss.