opother wrote:You already have a built in pressure meter. Your tactile sense of feel when you push down on the lever. Trust it, it's more accurate than you may think although it won't give you numbers. Either way a pressure gauge is nice to look at, will translate your efforts into numbered measuring system (bars.) I do prefer to have them on pump driven machines where it makes life easier (trouble shooting and pressure adjustment,) on a lever machine I can do with or without.

I already owned the Strietman for about 2 years before adding the pressure kit. Ín those 2 years with an average of 3 espresso a day is over 2.000 shots plus all my experience owning a brand new Cremina 2 years before that (total 1000 shots) and 2 months of Pavoni in between. I can tell you I thought I was very consistent but after putting in the pressure gauge the numbers told me something completely different. Humans aren't that good in doing things the same every time although they always think they are. Putting in the pressure kit made that very clear.

Without the kit the shots flowed very nice and tasted very good but with the kit you have a lot more options and taste did improve. It's soo much easier now with much better and more consistent results.

bettysnephew wrote:. If you consider the price of a new Cremina you are getting close to the same territory of a Bosco... You will either have to plumb the Bosco in or do as I did and use a FloJet and catch bottle.
I see you have decided to stay with the Cremina, it is a great machine from all I have heard but if the time comes to scratch that itch for a new machine take a close look at the Bosco Sorrento.

You also need to have the space for it. Massive machine! Especially compared to the compact Cremina.

erik82 wrote:I already owned the Strietman for about 2 years before adding the pressure kit. Ín those 2 years with an average of 3 espresso a day is over 2.000 shots plus all my experience owning a brand new Cremina 2 years before that (total 1000 shots) and 2 months of Pavoni in between. I can tell you I thought I was very consistent but after putting in the pressure gauge the numbers told me something completely different. Humans aren't that good in doing things the same every time although they always think they are. Putting in the pressure kit made that very clear.

Without the kit the shots flowed very nice and tasted very good but with the kit you have a lot more options and taste did improve. It's soo much easier now with much better and more consistent results.

A spring lever should improve consistency. It seems that having a gauge on a spring lever is redundant. Unlike a fully manual lever whereby the barista manipulates the pressure a spring lever uses a preset pressure base on the spring tension. An argument could be made that a fully manual lever allows the barista to manipulate the pressure to compensate for grind, dose and bean age vs a spring machine.
That being said I agree that most humans are not as accurate repeating something precise a pull in this case as they believe.
As great as a Cremina maybe I would rather have a machine with a thermosyphon or spring, even better both for consistent temperature and repeated pressure.

redbone wrote:A spring lever should improve consistency. It seems that having a gauge on a spring lever is redundant. Unlike a fully manual lever whereby the barista manipulates the pressure a spring lever uses a preset pressure base on the spring tension. An argument could be made that a fully manual lever allows the barista to manipulate the pressure to compensate for grind, dose and bean age vs a spring machine. That being said I agree that most humans are not as accurate repeating something precise a pull in this case as they believe.
As great as a Cremina maybe I would rather have a machine with a thermosyphon or spring, even better both for consistency both on temperature and repeated pressure.

I agree with Erik, repeatability and consistency with the pressure gauge on the CT1 is super easy... and just fun. It opens up the game for experimenting and repeating results if you are always trying to get the very most out of every bean. But having used a Londinium R for just a week now, there's certainly something to what you say about the consistency with a thermosyphon and spring. It truly is a no fuss walk up and pull experience, and the results are excellent.

^ ^ ^
The same is true for an Elektra Microcasa a Leva with a heat break gasket installed. I'm still happy to have a Cremina in my stable.

redbone wrote:A spring lever should improve consistency. It seems that having a gauge on a spring lever is redundant. Unlike a fully manual lever whereby the barista manipulates the pressure a spring lever uses a preset pressure base on the spring tension. An argument could be made that a fully manual lever allows the barista to manipulate the pressure to compensate for grind, dose and bean age vs a spring machine.

This is where you fail to see the possibilities and stop thinking past what a machine normally does. It's like saying that a pressure gauge on a pumpachine is only for readout of pressure and when it show 12 bar there's nothing you can do about it but grind finer. Oh wait we tend to adjust the OPV to get the desired result.

With the pressure gauge I can do flat 11, 9, 6, 3 bar or anywhere in between. I can also do a variation from 10-6, 9-4, 7-4 or just any profile I can think off so it's far from trying to reproduce a spring lever profile. With the pressure kit I can do every profile I want be it a flat or declining profile with all the pre-infusions options you can imagine and reproduce it time after time. It's like owning a full blown pressure profiling machine but without all the electronics that can break down or the limited option for pressure profiles. It really opens up a lot more potential of manual levers.

Your last comment in my quoted part is true that people with manual levers do that to compensate but I did the exact same thing on my Strega holding the lever back a bit so it's not so unique to manual levers as most people think.

I do agree with RyanP that a big springlever like a L-R will give great result just like a speedster does or anything in that class with minimal fuss. But having to work a bit harder and the options of both and more really opens up new worlds especially with light roasts. With dark roasts you won't need all those options but if you really like light to very light roasts then it can be very handy.

You make some good points. A gauge will show you real time pressure but it would still be difficult with hitting desired times for complicated profiles.
I let the P.I. time, flow rate and grind dictate my optimal grind. Changing grind, flow, dose, water temp and even water (TDS etc) allows me enough variables. I have settled on the natural sine wave of a spring loaded lever. At times I have retarded the spring on second pulls by adding some tension to the lever if the flow rate was too high.

drgary wrote:^ ^ ^
The same is true for an Elektra Microcasa a Leva with a heat break gasket installed. I'm still happy to have a Cremina in my stable.

As a used machine possibly, but given the new price of $3600+ vs current pro lever machines not likely.
I view a thermosyphon machine lever such as a Bosco, Londinium, Izzo Alex Leva and Quick Mill Achille as superior built and designed machines.

It is indeed a lot more work but is very rewarding. It's not suited for those how seek minimal fuss. Those are helped much better with full commercial size spring levers or pumpmachines.

Complex profiles can be done using a scale with build in timer but does add another thing to keep track off. It takes some time to get used to keeping the pressure right and looking away at the scale in the beginning immediately lets the pressure drop. In this case more and more practise as people aren't really made to do a lot things at the same time and be very consistent. This is the psychologist in me talking now as this is my University background .

redbone wrote:As a used machine possibly, but given the new price of $3600+ vs current pro lever machines not likely.
I view a thermosyphon machine lever such as a Bosco, Londinium, Izzo Alex Leva and Quick Mill Achille as superior built and designed machines.

Prosumer and commercial spring levers are a very different kind of machine and can serve different preferences. The Cremina has a small footprint, pulls an excellent shot and is built to last. I don't have the budget to spend for a new one of any of these. But then my Cremina ran about $800 all in after restoration, and my commercial lever ran probably about what a used Cremina would cost after chroming, powder coating, gaskets, etc. The cost of having more than one lever? Well, there is that!

These days I'm kind of settled on my brew gear and focusing more on learning to roast coffee well. That puts my espresso machines in context. I've learned to use them well enough to pull consistent and dialed in shots or to pull quick, convenience shots that are quite drinkable.