Problem with Flair is that it evolved from acceptable looking / acceptable price / acceptable thermal management (though not very fast) machine towards fancier looking / more expensive / worse thermal management. While each iteration solved some glitches, it introduced new problems as well. For instance, basket gained weight and thermal mass significantly + introduced problems with lifting / slanting

Even classic bottomless PF proved to be usable only to become aware of the problems I wouldn't have with original PF (due to much more concave filter that isn't good for even flow)

I seem similar trends here, just right from beginning

There was even fancier and heavier apparatus presented on this forum a few months ago

I'm not paying the price between LaPavoni and Cremina for fancy looking machine consisting of a few bolts and other fancy/shiny pieces, being able to make only a kind of cold espresso

When I have used a robot, I've always preheated it and I didn't find that step annoying. For the manusso I would assume a pre-heating flush is required in the same way it is recommended for the Flair. So I don't really see the thermal mass as a downside. More metal mass should be better actually, as long as you take pre-heating as a condition for use.

As for the 9th grade metal-shop comment and concern over replacement parts - can't disagree there! They do have a version with a pressure gauge the "special pro".

I won't be purchasing one in the near term, but I will be eagerly awaiting more 58mm Flair details. I think the success of the Robot has shown there is space in the market for a reasonably priced (few hundred $$) / high quality manual lever without a heating element. I love the robot, but being able to switch between baskets would seal the deal on a different lever for me. Robot is also climbing out of my "reasonable" price range at the moment with the recent price increase, but that's a complaint for a different thread!

More thermal mass should be better - if there is a way to preheat it. I don't see the nice way to preheat Flair pro II (or what's the name) basket, which has about half the mass of the cylinder. This new machine seems to have similar problems. Hope I'm wrong

Robot is a different story - there are at least 2 widely used ways to preheat the basket, which is much ligher

The piston on the Robot is a pretty big chunk of metal that isn't as convenient to preheat.

The piston is easily pre-heated, if you even would want to, by a couple of different methods.

When I bothered, I'd fill the pressurized basket and pull a shot of hot water to pre-heat the piston. I've heard of others steaming the piston or just submerging it.

I've stopped pre-heating the piston because it was unnecessary and sometimes detrimental to the shot, pre-heating the basket and portafilter is enough for me.

Easy is a relative term. I've done it and it's not a big deal. I just think it's less convenient.

I can heat the PF and basket to near-boiling temperature if I want. That would be much harder to do with the piston. Repeated immersions? A small stove underneath?? So it will be a heat sink to some degree. The fact that preheating it is usually unnecessary and can even be detrimental just points out that it's more complicated than simply tallying the mass of metal in a machine.

I figured it pointed to the advantage of the Robot's lower thermal mass that the piston doesn't necessarily need to be pre-heated. I'm finding the Robot to be uncomplicated.

You're probably right.

I mean, you're definitely right that the Robot is uncomplicated. But that the Robot has a lower thermal mass I have to just accept on faith as I don't know how to measure that. I think rather than doing complicated engineering people who use these machines just grok it. I have exactly zero experience with other manual levers so I don't know how much harder one has to try to get the temperature up to an acceptable level. But from what you're saying I take it that other manual levers require more heat management for a given coffee.

I would be very cautious with these machines, preheating may be a nightmare.

vit wrote:Problem with Flair is that it evolved from acceptable looking / acceptable price / acceptable thermal management (though not very fast) machine towards fancier looking / more expensive / worse thermal management. While each iteration solved some glitches, it introduced new problems as well. For instance, basket gained weight and thermal mass significantly + introduced problems with lifting / slanting...

I am going to defend my Flair. With the detachable base it is more portable than the Robot and true, while it has a learning curve, it is fairly easy to use once mastered. I love carrying my Flair when traveling with a collapsible silicone-walled kettle and Knock Aergrind inside a Gator G-MIXERBAG-1212 that also accommodates a generous stash of beans and two Bodums.

The Flair cylinder has a lot of mass, and properly preheated this creates some good thermal stability.

So for more than a year of vacation and business travel joy, no more crummy hotel coffee.

Don't get me wrong, nothing like on my Lusso with Strietman 18g basket over naked, but very tolerable espresso.

bobpaule wrote: I am going to defend my Flair. With the detachable base it is more portable than the Robot and true, while it has a learning curve, it is fairly easy to use once mastered. I love carrying my Flair when traveling with a collapsible silicone-walled kettle and Knock Aergrind inside a Gator G-MIXERBAG-1212 that also accommodates a generous stash of beans and two Bodums.

The Flair cylinder has a lot of mass, and properly preheated this creates some good thermal stability.

I don't detach the base when going to vacation anymore, I don't have a good feeling about those tiny threads in the stand base surviving it many more times. I just put it in the bag and other items, including Bellman, around it
Was using Feldgrind for about 2 years before realizing it's was the reason for mediocre results (besides the shape of Flair bottomless basket), while Lido 3 I bought previously was collecting dust. Now replaced with Kinu, really a great device (and back to original basket).

Flair cylinder has about 250g of metal, but about 1g of water remaining on the walls after preheat cools it down about 10°C in about 10s while evaporating (how fast, depends on humidity a lot) while mounting it on the PF and pouring the water. Both calculation and measurement gave similar result. Much more than one would think. But when the temperature stabilizes, it's quite stable, I measured on average 1-1.5°C drop during half minute pull if steam preheat used. Other preheat methods not as good

Judging from the photo, I think achieving normal brew temperatures with Manusso is connected with, well, various problems ... but maybe there are some hidden details, who knows ...