Londinium R24 vs. ACS Vostok - Page 7

#61: Post by **Jake_G** » February 6th, 2023, 10:18 pm

Plinyyounger wrote:Okay, what is the difference between the fill rates,specifically. I genuinely want to know.

Dippers (and apparently HX machines?) have astonishingly fast fill rates, like on the order of 50-60ml/s.

I have no idea what this means for flavor, but it is something no pump machine can emulate.

It is the equivalent of opening the hot water valve on a steam boiler.

#62: Post by **Primacog** » February 6th, 2023, 10:20 pm

Jake_G wrote:Hey Denis,

It's great to have you back!

As always, you make a great point. My counter to this comes back to Tom's point. If I have a unit less knob that goes from 0 to 100 and by moving that knob, I find coffee that is fantastic and makes me happy, I'm done. Back to the car analogy, (or is it a metaphor?) if my goal is to overtake the slow poke, I really don't care about anything else. And if my goal is subjectively delicious espresso, and I find that o get it with my knob set to 67 on thos coffee and 32 on that coffee, that's all that matters.

Could the coffee be more delicious? Sure!

But by how much? And am I worried about lost deliciousness points, or am I worried about being satisfied?

Agreed, I did say it was an extreme example

But I'd argue that whatever your knob is that impacts deliciousness gives you exactly what you need to know - provided it is repeatable.

Back to the unit less taste knob.

And the car.

If my goal is to overtake one slow poke and slide in between this slow poke and the slow poke in front of them, now I need to know how much throttle to give. Not enough, I don't overtake them, and I need to try again. Too much, and I overshoot and can't slide in between the slow poke in front.
I know if I've met my goal because my goal is clear. How I get there is simply not important. The car has a go-fast pedal that works. The espresso machine has a tasty knob that works. This coffee is sour at setting 13 and burnt at setting 43. Let's try setting 28 and see how that goes. If deliciousness ensues, we're done. Maybe 30 is tastier, maybe 26.

The only time you need more control is if nothing works. And in that case, you need a new variable. And hybrid levers give you another variable. In the correct hands, this variable gives you unparalleled deliciousness. In the wrong hands, the added complexity keeps the beat results always a breath away. Never quite there, because the balance that is achieved with the simple machine can be lost when folks without appropriate know how inadvertently through the system into a chaotic state.

I'm NOT saying more is bad. I'm just saying that sometimes less can be more.

Cheers!

-Jake

I agree that what you describe can indeed happen with a machine like the decent - having too many options as it were can lead to inability to dial the espresso in because the user cannot cope with too many variables.

However where it comes to the Nurri leva, it's presentation is so hands on and analogue that it is as simple to use as any Londinium. There is only one display for the PID and 1 analogue manometer gauges and that's it where displays are concerned. There is nothing to program except the PID which was so intuitive that i didnt even read the manual betore starting to adjust it. The paddles give hands on tactile control - the left paddle vents tbe grpuphead and ends the shot by pulling it towards oneself while the right paddle engages the pump by pushing it towards the machine. While the pump pressure can be changed at any time by turning a dial at the back of the machine in the latest batch.

The user can leave the PIDs on default mode and he can even switch them off entirely if he wants and just control the preinfusion pressure - which is what a Londinium owner would do. All the uncomplicated feeling that a Londinium evokes in its owners is similarly available in the nurri if that's the level the owner wants to operate at.

But on top of that, he has an automatic shot timer and the left paddle to end the shot any time he wants which vents the remaining water in the grouphead into the drip tray like a solenoid valve does in a pump machine.

On the other hand if the user eventually wants to explore what changing the temperatures of the grouphead and the brew boiler will do, he can turn the pid on and have at it. Whereas the owner of a londoniim doesn't ever have that option ....

February 6th, 2023, 10:36 pm

Jake_G wrote:Dippers (and apparently HX machines?) have astonishingly fast fill rates, like on the order of 50-60ml/s.

I have no idea what this means for flavor, but it is something no pump machine can emulate.

It is the equivalent of opening the hot water valve on a steam boiler.

That is interesting. Since you suggested it, what are the other differences? I also am not sure sure the initial fill makes a difference in flavor.

February 6th, 2023, 10:43 pm

I take that back, because we can name so many differences in the machines. Let me ask you what you think are the differences in the machines that cause unacceptable flavor differences.

February 6th, 2023, 10:50 pm

Primacog wrote:If that is true, in which case there is no need for the Londinium machines either, is there? Because all they do is to address the preinfusion stage...which then begs the question why even bother innovating beyond traditional spring levers then? Let's just stick to machines like profitec pro 800 and the izzo alex...

Sure. But if the argument presented against the Londinium is that it is only controlling one variable, so you're leaving results on the table, then surely it's reasonable to ask why, when purchasing a hybrid lever, is one satisfied to leave one variable, extraction pressure, beyond your control?

I suspect the answer is because there's a certain magic in the fast fill rate of a lever machine, and until a product ala Decent can truly reproduce that fill rate, then this is the next best thing.

February 6th, 2023, 11:02 pm

My point about the Londinium is that it is hailed as being simpler than a hyvrid lever but since it tries to affect changes in brew temperature in an indirect fashion instead of directly changing brew temperature, it is actually less simple than a hybrid lever that can change temp directly. Or change preinfusion pressure directly. Or both if one wants to do that.

As well a hybrid lever can independently affect more variables than a Londinium can - or just as many if one chooses to not to use those functions.

What u r actually suggesting is that it is not valid to say that B is more versatile than A because r A can only affect 30 per cent while B can affect 60 per cent, on the basis that A cannot affect 100 per cent. I would suggest that that logic is clearly fallacious as shown by how I have restated it above.

However as a matter of fact the Nurri leva can engage the pump (that can go up to 8 or 9 bar) while the lever is still in extraction phase. I haven't tried experimenting on what happens to the shot when thta is done or if the pump is engaged and its pressure varied dynamically during extraction but theoretically this seems to mean that some kind of profiling can be done with the nurri even during extraction - and that is in addition to the bag of tricks avail to any spring lever such as Fellini move or forcing the lever.

On fill rate and the decent, i suspect its not fill rate but the column of water effect. The decent may be reproducing this effect when it is configured to do blooming shots...

#67: Post by **Primacog** » February 6th, 2023, 11:08 pm

Jake_G wrote:Dippers (and apparently HX machines?) have astonishingly fast fill rates, like on the order of 50-60ml/s.

I have no idea what this means for flavor, but it is something no pump machine can emulate.

It is the equivalent of opening the hot water valve on a steam boiler.

Wouldn't a fill rate that's too fast possibly destroy the integrity of the puck?

Could it be that the real advantage a spring lever has - particularly the La San Marco ones thta have the volume inside the grouphead - is that it places a large column of water over the puck?

#68: Post by **Jake_G** » February 6th, 2023, 11:27 pm

Plinyyounger wrote:I take that back, because we can name so many differences in the machines. Let me ask you what you think are the differences in the machines that cause unacceptable flavor differences.

Oh. I dont have a dog in this fight. Nor do I think there are specific differences that cause unacceptable flavor differences. I'm just commenting that the fill rate is different between the two.

February 6th, 2023, 11:33 pm

Primacog wrote:What u r actually suggesting is that it is not valid to say that B is more versatile than A because r A can only affect 30 per cent while B can affect 60 per cent, on the basis that A cannot affect 100 per cent. I would suggest that that logic is clearly fallacious as shown by how I have restated it above.

Gees, we were doing so well fleshing this out. I don't know how from my posts you can say that the above is what I am suggesting. We can do better here than creating straw men.

I own an R24, and am having a terrific time, but I am not here arguing for it. Before purchasing, I looked at some of the levers like Nurri (before they were officially released) and ultimately decided to go with the proven product, and wait to see what results the early adopters had. And my machine was used, local, and priced right.

I'm not suggesting for a second that one of these hybrid levers is not more versatile. I am asking why, if controllability of these details is important to the purchaser, are they content with the pressure profile of the spring being largely beyond their control?

Is it because of tactile nature of this machine versus others with screens?

Is it because the spring profile is the superior pressure profile for most every bean?

If it is because 'taste this and tell me I'm wrong'?

Is it because the extraction pressure doesn't matter as much as the other aspects these machines can control?

Is it because 'I've loved my other spring levers, so wanted one with more?

#70: Post by **Jake_G** » February 6th, 2023, 11:38 pm

Primacog wrote: Wouldn't a fill rate that's too fast possibly destroy the integrity of the puck?

Could it be that the real advantage a spring lever has - particularly the La San Marco ones thta have the volume inside the grouphead - is that it places a large column of water over the puck?

I think the fill rate is what gives you the column.

I thought the crazy fast fill rate must be doing bad things, but it just doesn't seem to be the case.

Remember that there is no column of water until the fill rate makes it. When the piston is raised, there is just empty space until the ports are uncovered in a traditional lever. Only when the piston seal clears the port does the column of water begin to be formed. So being that the entire column needs to be filled, perhaps the effective fill rate is not so huge.

Take a decent with a 20ml headspace (I know I'm wrong, but bear with me) and an 8ml/s fill rate. You get 2.5s to fill.

Then take a dipper or HX machine that utilizes flash boiling plus pump assist without a gicleur to have a very high fill rate. But you also have a 100ml swept volume to fill behind the shower screen and a typical headspace to fill between the shower screen and the puck. So if you have a 50ml/s fill rate, you still have 2.4s of fill time for a total volume of 120ml.

Not so different.

Why do you say "particularly the LSM ones"? Do they have a bigger column of water than other levers?