KarlSchneider wrote:I seem to be the defender of the Elektra. It is no chore to do so. I love its appearance above all the others which I have seen only in pictures and never held in my hands. I have never had better espresso. I cannot speak to longevity. I have had mine for less than a year. I still want to try a manual lever because Steve Robinson has persuaded me to do so. I am open to being surprised that a Cremina pulls better shots.

KS

Karl,

IMO there is no question the Elektra wins for beauty. Perhaps only surpassed by a Kees van der Westen machine. As for the difference between the Cremina and the Elektra, like you I have no direct experience. However, I think that one factor in addition to the spring is the beefiness of the machine that allows you to take it to the edge without stalling or stressing it.

You can typically pull the classic lever shot, smooth, sweet, clean, but perhaps a bit light on crema and mouthfeel. But you can also push the machine to produce a pump-like shot, lots of crema, tiger flecks, rich mouthfeel, but perhaps less smoothness and clarity to the taste. And every once in a while an elusive shot that is the best of both. Of course you can also pull a 5 second bubbling 4 oz gusher or a 40 second overextracted 1/2 oz cup of goop if all factors are not aligned.

I've seen and tasted enough world class espresso to know that the Cremina produces output in that class. Of course, proof of existence needs only one shot to make that statement true. There are days when I may have three shots in that class. But then there may be days when I will not come close at all. Happily, the misses are eminently drinkable. And intermittent reinforcement is a more powerful motivator of behavior than constant reinforcement .

KarlSchneider wrote: I still want to try a manual lever because Steve Robinson has persuaded me to do so. I am open to being surprised that a Cremina pulls better shots.

KS

Evening Professor.

If you want to try a full manual, you are welcome to try out my Gaggia Factory (LaPav Pro in disguise). We never have gotten together. It sounds like a fun Saturday evening get together or I could loan it to you for a week.

srobinson wrote:I wanted to start a new thread to talk about enjoying Single Origin coffees on the lever machines. I am beginning to believe that a great lever and a SO is a decedent combination.

Wow, I know I'm over 6 months late in responding to the OP, but the lawyer in me really wanted to point out that "decedent" means a "dead person." hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe

I know I have nothing of value to add to this thread, but I hope my maniacal laughter provided some comic relief.

peacecup wrote:Karl,

I've noted that you've expressed interest in a Cremina - I would really like to see a comparison of the Elektra and the Cremina. I strongly suspect that the Elektra would hold its own.

Also, you've discussed over-heating. Have you tried cooling the group with a wet towel. The large group on the Elektra appears to be designed to mimic those of commercial levers - they sink heat to keep temperature stable. I've noticed that I can keep my PV at my preferred brew temperature by just cooling the group a bit between later shots.

PC

PC,

Again tonight 3 Yemen Mokha Sana'ani remind so clearly of my need to thank you. I continue to use a cold wet sponge to cool the group on Niccolo Amati between the 2nd and 3rd shots (and 3 /4) and it works extremely well. It essentially eliminates the overheating I taste if I do not do this. A very simple solution. Elegant simplicity.

It appears I am getting a Cremina. I am quite excited about sharing my tastings of the differences between my Elektra and the Cremina as I can taste them. It may take me a while to get the "hang" of the Cremina. With ca. >1500 pulls on the Elektra I think I am moving from "kennen" to "wissen" (or, conocer to saber / connaitre to savoir). I hope the Cremina learning curve is shorter.

KS

Karl,

Actually, I've just nominated you for Mo's Hall of Fame:

Lever members now in the Hall of Fame...

Your focus on tasting has helped my barista skills immeasurably. Although I love all that chrome (or brass) I'm really after espresso. Which is why I'm writing - my espressi today have all been doppio - I've written on the relative merits of dose elsewhere (see solo or doppio), but today I want to make another note about cooling the group. I pulled four doppios today on the PV (and one on my Estro just to compare - it didn't). The second to last PV doppio was quite hot, and consequently a "window" shot (no sink in my office). I cooled the group, tightened up the grind, and pulled by far the best shot of the day. The upshot is that a faster pour will be hotter, not cooler, because it has less time in contact with the heat sink (group). Very interesting... and tasty!

So glad you'll be getting to try a Cremina - I'm looking forward to your review!

PC

I have begun roasting my own. In a cast iron pan on my electric stovetop. I eventually hope to go to a small drum on the gas barbie. I started with a Yemen Moka, which I've learned tends to roast unevenly. Can anyone tell me how long it should take to bring it to a full city or slightly beyond? How long to first and second crack? I read somewhere that the beans should start in the cool pan and be brought up to temperature. Is this correct?

Is there a better bean to learn on then the Yemen?

Thanks,

PC

Hey PC, I am sure you will love roasting your own. I wish I could give you guidelines but my experience is limited to drum roasters (Alp and Hottop). On both all I can say that might help is that it takes about 2 min. from the start of first crack to the start of second. One has to be careful about defining "start." I never consider the very first crack I hear a start. I wait until I get 3 & 4 close together. 2 min. after that the second usually starts. But this interval varies from bean to bean.

Yes Yemen beans roast irregularly. This makes the start of each crack harder to define. The sound of each crack is quite different. The first is pronounced like breaking a pencil. The second is much more quiet more like a snap on a shirt than a crack. You will hear them easily after a few tries.

Full City is just before second crack starts. I take my roasts well beyond. To rapid second crack. But I prefer oily beans.

I recommend using a timer and a log in which you record times for each crack. I record start of first / start of second and end of roasting. My first cracks start at 15 min on the Hottop. Second starts around 17 and I end roasting at 18+. In the Hottop one starts by adding room temp beans to a drum warmed for 5 min. I think I would warm the cast iron pan a bit before adding beans.

Experiment and taste.

KS

Well, im not a lever user (yet), but then again its about the coffee, not the machinery, right? but I too am beginning to explore SOs more thoroughly. I have Sumatra Mandheling, and Ethiopian Yirgacheffe, in copious amounts; I have blended them 50-50 at times, but find that I can appreciate their flavours as a SO much more at the moment. My palate isnt excellent by any standard; I have tried about 6 other beans previously and have explored them rather inefficiently, but recently, with the two I have settled on, I am learning a lot more about what each bean likes as far as roasting, degassing, dosing and grinding.

I found the Yirgacheffe, until yesterday, to be very bright, very sour, if used in espresso too soon. Yesterdays yirgacheffe espresso, was roasted just before the rolling second crack, it progressed slower than usual, about 45 seconds from the start of the second crack, 3 days of degassing, had a very light taste, with what i can only describe as a very 'fresh' finish. I cant describe the specific flavours, since my palate isnt fantastic, but I found the yirgacheffe to be very delicate. This one was down dosed, with a finer grind, highlight the brighter notes.

Im interested to see what others have to say about these two coffees, and their plan of attack.

MachoSilvia wrote:..snip
I found the Yirgacheffe, until yesterday, to be very bright, very sour, if used in espresso too soon. Yesterdays yirgacheffe espresso, was roasted just before the rolling second crack, it progressed slower than usual, about 45 seconds from the start of the second crack, 3 days of degassing, had a very light taste, with what i can only describe as a very 'fresh' finish. I cant describe the specific flavours, since my palate isnt fantastic, but I found the yirgacheffe to be very delicate. This one was down dosed, with a finer grind, highlight the brighter notes.

Im interested to see what others have to say about these two coffees, and their plan of attack.

I find a good Yirg' to be very sweet, thick and chocolaty if pulled at a low (.9bar) temp on a lever machine. A dark city roast is all I go to. No oil showing.
That's all I know from my short ( 1 year+)experience. I have started roasting other SO's and find I have to roast to my machine and taste. I have been doing the immediate freeze after culling the bad beans. I reallly like the effect of having what I want available when I want it. Even two weeks doesn't lose anything! Home roasted Sumatra after three weeks in the freezer! A "Good shot" not quite a 6 This after 3 minutes settling! Light color spot from drip, not over extracted.

My 1¢
have fun!
richard

MachoSilvia wrote: Im interested to see what others have to say about these two coffees, and their plan of attack.

Hi,

In my experience a Yirg. that is dry processed makes far better SO espresso than a wet processed. This is my experience for all Ethiopians -- I choose dry-processed for espresso. On the other hand I much prefer wet processed Ethiopians in my morning Cafe Hermitaggio aka Americano.

I have the same experienc with Sumatra Mandehling. It seems to make a great morning Cafe Hermitaggio but not a great SO espresso.

If I had large quantities of each to use I might experiment with different roast levels. I suggest roasting and tasting side-by-side the same bean roasted at diferent degrees of darkness.

KS