Hi everyone,

first time poster, long time lurker here. I have recently acquired not one but two La Pavonis and have been spending most of my free time during the last couple of months reading the posts on this forum. I have learned a lot and I would like to say a quick thank you at this point to all you lovely people out there willing to share your experiences and the various tips and tricks regarding these wonderful machines.

I have two questions which I so far have not found answered anywhere and I'm hoping someone might be able to help me with these.

First of all, my latest purchase, a 1963 Europiccola. When I got the machine the boiler and heating element looked scaled so I did a descale with white vinegar and hot water followed by several rinses with clean water. Everything cleaned up nicely apart from some random scale deposits which I was going to scrub manually after I got the boiler removed from the base. However, next day, when I looked into the boiler, there was once again this off-white layer of something covering the heating element and the boiler walls (apart from the very top of the boiler). Any idea what might be the cause of this? I'm thinking some sort of chemical reaction involving different metals but could anyone give a more informed explanation or what could be done about this? I have done a similar descale on my 1987 La Pavoni Pro and nothing like this happened.

My second question is about the heating element in my 1987 Pro. The heating element seems to work fine but there is a flat metal (looks like copper) arch attached to the heating element which arches over the copper coil. I have seen a picture of a La Pavoni heating element with some sort of a metal sleeve surrounding the element inside the boiler but have not seen this anywhere else. Is this a normal La Pavoni heating element or am I looking at something a previous owner might have done? The water level needs to be fairly high to cover this arch completely so I'm wondering will this present a problem when using the machine. The base of the heating element as well as the copper coil itself look the same as in my other machine and the pictures I have seen of other people's machines.

My apologies if these questions have been addressed on this forum before and I have somehow missed them and my sincerest thanks in advance if anyone can offer any insight.

Hi Henna, and welcome to HB! I can't help with you with the HE question on the Pro, but you may need to descale the '63 boiler with citric acid. There's other folks on here more knowledgeable than me, so you should be getting more recommendations soon.

Can you take a picture of either element. It sounds like the 63 is either still scaled or the element has burst leaving the insides as residue on the element. Citric acid or vinegar/water should be sufficient to descale.

I have seen one other pavoni with that sort of element, take a picture if you can.

hekaraa wrote:in my 1987 Pro. The heating element seems to work fine but there is a flat metal (looks like copper) arch attached to the heating element which arches over the copper coil. I have seen a picture of a La Pavoni heating element with some sort of a metal sleeve surrounding the element inside the boiler but have not seen this anywhere else.

I'm sure that's normal, but nevertheless interesting. Seems like between 1980 and 1990, La Pavoni used a variety of tangs and even the sleeve you described, apparently in an effort to conduct heat to the thermofuse well. A couple of them can be seen in Francesco Ceccarelli's page here: http://www.francescoceccarelli.eu/La_Pa ... za_eng.htm . As Mike (forbeskm) said, if you get a chance to post a picture, that would be nice.

Thanks for all the answers so far! Here are some pictures.

This is the heating element from the 1963 Europiccola after two vinegar descales. The vinegar seems to remove the white layer for a moment but after a little while it returns. Is it possible that the scale is not completely removed and it shows only after the element is no longer wet? To my eyes it looks like the element is in pretty good shape apart from the tiny spot of rust (?) inside on the right. I can't see any obvious ruptures which could cause this. I haven't had a chance to test the element whether it works or not. The base definitely still has some scale which needs to be dealt with.


Here's also a picture of the Europiccola's boiler, this is after one descale. As with the element, the white layer seemed to disappear after the descale or at least it seemed so while the boiler was still wet.The coarser scale which can be seen around the edges was visible even wet.


I haven't removed the Pro's heating element and my photography skills are nothing to write home about but I hope the next picture gives you an idea of how the element looks.

Hello,
I'm also currently restoring a '63 LP, and the element had a very thick layer of scale that was very hard and difficult to remove, even with manual scrubbing. I had it in vinegar for 2 days and it barely made a dent in it. That is when I call out the big gun; muriatic acid. A few minutes in that and the scale is no match! Beware when handling this dangerous acid, if you go this route! You want to do this outside and with full protection, including mask. You also want to dispose of it properly.
Good luck.

Thanks for the photos, Henna. That is a different looking element on that Pro. Is always possible that it was a replaced element, but I wouldn't worry about it as long as it works.

Re:

crazy4espresso wrote:That is when I call out the big gun; muriatic acid.

I would not go that far, even with stubborn scale. See Descaling copper boilers--something NOT to do!!! . (HB member rpavlis is a retired chemistry professor with a lot of copper and copper alloy knowledge, also is a vintage La Pavoni owner.)

If you wanted something slightly stronger than vinegar you could try a citric acid solution. But I'd just go with a longer soak in 50:50 white vinegar and water first and see if that works. That looks like a very light deposit of scale. It's odd to me that it appears to look clean then goes back to the coating of white residue, maybe others have an idea about that. I assume you aren't using extremely hard tap water to descale and rinse the machine.

I did not put the muriatic acid in the boiler! This was a last resort effort on scale on the element that was several millimetres thick and very hard. I typically use vinegar exclusively and did not have citric acid on hand, and the muriatic acid was a few feet away
I left it only as long as to dissolve the scale and watched it very closely. It's been a week and I can't identify damage to the element.
Also I should mention that I diluted the acid quite a bit before use.

I've used vinegar and citric acid on about 10+ elements and boilers.

Vinegar at 5% is mild. I've used full strength for 24-36 hours on more stubborn stains with some success.
For more stubborn stains or requiring shorter duration times for a descale I've had better luck with a teaspoon of citric acid powder mixed with R.O. or distilled water and leaving in between 1-3 hrs.
I usually give the boiler \ element a very good water flush followed by a cleanser polisher clean such as barkeepers friend.

The second time descaling the element I actually used only vinegar but I didn't let it soak that long since it seemed to get clean pretty fast. I will have to try a longer soak and then move on to the citric acid, if needed. I'm pretty apprehensive about using any strong chemicals on a machine I'm planning to drink coffee from so I thought I'd start as gentle as possible.