La Pavoni DP 47 1949 handle mechanism - Page 2

A haven dedicated to manual espresso machine aficionados.
GonzalesEnrique (original poster)

#11: Post by GonzalesEnrique (original poster) »

channo wrote:Hello
For a moment I have only m'y phone and dont have picture to show you.
I'll wait for it. Thanks! :D

GonzalesEnrique (original poster)

#12: Post by GonzalesEnrique (original poster) »

pootoogoo wrote:Enrique, there is no patent for the Cornuta group. It is just an evolution of the original 1902 Bezzera/Pavoni express group (the one on Ideale machines, see here for more).
:mrgreen:

Thanks! I will investigate more about it. I have an ambicious project in mind. :wink:

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GonzalesEnrique (original poster)

#13: Post by GonzalesEnrique (original poster) »

Sansibar99 wrote:All the right guys in one place - this is a fun thread to follow :D

Enrique, one good source for original documents on La Pavoni is:
La Pavoni :mrgreen:
Check this http://www.lapavoni.it/pavoni-world.php#museum
- Great! Join us please! :D

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channo

#14: Post by channo »

Hi
Here is the express term that is mentioned in several advertising in the history of pro or domestic machines.

The term espresso is Bezzera that put in place to differentiate his true invention, single cup or X2X3 (porta filtro).

Moriondo and before the french were large volume of coffee brewed to the vapor pressure of the water column for highest pressure.
Gaggia is no fault of the trade changed the term "espresso" very popular in 45 years of use and promotion. But adds the "crema di caffe naturale senza funziona vapore" (7b the group Gaggia pressure) remains the "espresso" (maximum 2.5b) del Signore Bezzera remaining in the language.
Sebastien,
We must let go of the charm of reading, to understand the instruction, context and circumstances that this person was written.





the term "diaphragm" and "circle" refers to language "Industrial 1815", "filter" "and" cone and you will understand the flow of water to the interior of the grounds. Laurens four years after (the same tin) invents mounted outside water without pressure, just filtration.
He worked with tinplate and tin solders which made them vulnerable to pressure ....
What Bialetti with cast aluminum and a valve safety resolved 100 years later.
Rabaut & Römershausen a chance to apply for patents in England and Germany, while 99% of patents were invented and place in France?
Remains another mystery ... or did the drafting of Sené?
A Google scan oblivion on a book? (very rare)
An oversight on the INPI deposit? (very rare)
It has not yet been discovered ...
Cremonese was a technician in a roasting and adapt conical wheels (which existed for small mills) to use a pro. The current site gives a less industrial war image.
The sale of patent Cremonese by Rozetta Scorsa and trial of Italian manufacturers to fall into the public domain patent in 1953 était.ces also made it as the date of creation of the group was on the former site mentiones Gaggia that n 'appears more nowadays. New: http://www.gaggia.com/n-m-co/espresso/the-story glamour now.
Andrea

GonzalesEnrique (original poster)

#15: Post by GonzalesEnrique (original poster) »

channo wrote:Hi
Here is the express term that is mentioned in several advertising in the history of pro or domestic machines.
<image>
the term "diaphragm" and "circle" refers to language "Industrial 1815", "filter" "and" cone and you will understand the flow of water to the interior of the grounds. Laurens four years after (the same tin) invents mounted outside water without pressure, just filtration.
He worked with tinplate and tin solders which made them vulnerable to pressure ....
What Bialetti with cast aluminum and a valve safety resolved 100 years later.
Rabaut & Römershausen a chance to apply for patents in England and Germany, while 99% of patents were invented and place in France?
Remains another mystery ... or did the drafting of Sené?
A Google scan oblivion on a book? (very rare)
An oversight on the INPI deposit? (very rare)
It has not yet been discovered ...
Cremonese was a technician in a roasting and adapt conical wheels (which existed for small mills) to use a pro. The current site gives a less industrial war image.
The sale of patent Cremonese by Rozetta Scorsa and trial of Italian manufacturers to fall into the public domain patent in 1953 était.ces also made it as the date of creation of the group was on the former site mentiones Gaggia that n 'appears more nowadays ...glamour now.
Hi Andrea,

Oh my god! I'm sure this whole information is a huge revelation not only for me but for many more members of this club. I am proud to be surrounded by knowledgeable and valuable people.

Do you have any schema or drawing about the old steam driver mechanism? I would like to reproduce it for teaching purposes.

Thank you! :D

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dcbrown

#16: Post by dcbrown »

GonzalesEnrique wrote::mrgreen:

Thanks! I will investigate more about it. I have an ambicious project in mind. :wink:

Now I'm curious! Could you possibly have found one? Will you teach it to make real espresso? Surely the baskets are enormous.
LMWDP #543

GonzalesEnrique (original poster)

#17: Post by GonzalesEnrique (original poster) »

dcbrown wrote:Now I'm curious! Could you possibly have found one? Will you teach it to make real espresso? Surely the baskets are enormous.
...something like that :wink:

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pootoogoo

#18: Post by pootoogoo »

I was also curious about your new discovery and project Enrique, looking forward to see more. :wink:



Maybe this is another debate but... Andrea, to answer your questions:
- There is no Sené drawing because he left a model of his coffee maker at the «Comité consultatif des Arts et Manufactures» (as this was the case for many inventions).
[edit: this is what is written on the second page of the INPI patent manuscript]
- Tremendous exchanges between scientific people happened during this historical period and this whole idea of protecting private inventions rather than share it with the community was pretty new. France don't own 99% of the coffeemaker inventions, it is just an historical distortion created by archives availability. France was one of the first country to institutionalize inventions and preciously kept traces of it, that's great but that's all. Reliable information can be found through scientific reports but still, lot of archives disappeared during war periods. Germany (and to some extent England) had a lot of inventions related to coffee extraction techniques, and sometimes precursors of it (Römershausen, Nörrenberg, Kessel). What to say about countries that had no patent system at all and/or, to say the least, messy archive system (such as Italy).
[edit: this is just to put things into context, patriotism usually don't match well with honesty]

Concerning Sené, we refer to the same document but don't have the same interpretation: first, the terms "cercle" and "diaphragme" are tinsmith terms meaning rings or cylinders and discs of metal (refer to the 1849 «Manuel complet du ferblantier et du lampiste»). The coffeemaker is said "without ebullition" because it has a double-wall to create an "air bath". One who carefully reads the description of the 4th part ("The top of the coffeemaker is a reservoir in which the prepared coffee falls; it is placed upside down (?) on the boiler; it is retained by small copper clips which minimize evaporation") shouldn't conclude with certainty that it was the first express machine (so-called Moka pot).

This is certainly just a detail... but history is a sum of details. If you forgot decimals and replace it with too much interpretation, you may end up with the wrong result.

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dcbrown

#19: Post by dcbrown »

GonzalesEnrique wrote:...something like that :wink:
I've been curious for a while...has anyone ever converted an old steam driven machine (similar to the one in my profile pic) to be pump driven? I had played with the idea, but wonder if the portafilter lock could handle the load. The large area combined with higher pressure could rip it apart.

It seems likely that the change to smaller diameter filter baskets (when the changing from steam to lever driven) was intended to keep lever forces reasonable, and not to limit the structural loads on the portafilter lock.
LMWDP #543

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pootoogoo

#20: Post by pootoogoo »

Sorry to bother everyone with my obsessions but this seem to be the right place to do so. :D
Last intervention on Sené (or Soehné or maybe Söhner).

Here is the proof that Sené invention was rather a flip-drip coffeepot (so-called Neapolitan coffee pot) and not the first express system.


[Bulletin de la Société d'Encouragement pour l'Industrie Nationale, N. 187-198, p. 125 (1820)]

This 1820 testimony reports that the Morize coffee pot is identical to the Sené machine presented in 1815 to the same guys.
And here it is: five parts corresponding to the description.


[Morize's Beschreibung einer Kaffee-Maschine, Polytechnisches Journal, 1820]

Unless scientists of the time were wrong...