Identifying year of La Pavoni Europiccola Millenium - Page 4

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Knock

#31: Post by Knock »

Hi there - just looking at this when it went live again!

only difference I've noticed between my pre99 loan machine (Pro) and my own millenium Europiccola is that the latter seems to draw more volume of liquid. Haven't gone to the lengths Timo888 did sometime back in measuring the shot volume but it seems logical that this would be the case given the increased bore of the piston etc.

I am having an issue with gushing though that may be a result of sensitivity to how much coffee is in the basket but I'm hoping to get that answered in another thread.

sneaky
Peter Kilpatrick

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homeburrero
Team HB

#32: Post by homeburrero »

shewaslikeabeard wrote:What I'm wondering, is what else, other than the grouphead, on the machine is likely to be pre-millenium? And how can I tell? Additionally are there any advantages/disadvantages to having a smaller grouphead?
The "Millennium" has to do with the larger grouphead, which has a different shape than the pre-millennium, and uses an internal plastic sleeve for the cylinder. When looking at a machine, you can readily tell by the shape of the grouphead. Even on eBay pictures it's pretty easy to distinguish the two after you look at a few machines of each type.

On europiccolas and a romanticas, there are many machines that had the same pStat, single element, green switch as the millennium machines but did not have the millennium grouphead. I understand that some of these pre-millennium machines came with the ryton (plastic) pistons. (Early millenniums have plastic pistons and newer ones went back to brass pistons.)

There are other discussions on this thread about the tradeoffs:
La Pavoni Piston - Pros & Cons of Brass vs Plastic
La Pavoni Millennium Owners, Are Temperature Problems Solved?

The millennium has a larger and deeper basket that allows a bigger dose, but you can get something similar by going to an Elektra basket for your pre-millennium machine. Doing that may require cutting or grinding your portafilter. (see Europiccola basket volumes)
Knock wrote:I've noticed between my pre99 loan machine (Pro) and my own millenium Europiccola is that the latter seems to draw more volume of liquid. Haven't gone to the lengths Timo888 did sometime back in measuring the shot volume but it seems logical that this would be the case given the increased bore of the piston etc.
I think the bore of the millennium and pre-millennium is identical. You can use the same piston in either. The water inlet system is way different, and this can affect shot volume. The slightly wider and significantly deeper basket on the millennium also has some effect on shot volume depending on how you dose it. My experience (which may not be typical) is that I get a more solid feel and slightly more volume from my pre-millennium than my millennium machine. I do use an Elektra basket and dose on the high side.
Pat
nínádiishʼnahgo gohwééh náshdlį́į́h

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stefano65
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#33: Post by stefano65 »

here is a (in my opinion) good way in which I made it easier for customers to see the difference
in grouphead size
http://espressocare.com/PavoniGroupsCompare.html
Stefano Cremonesi
Stefano's Espresso Care
Repairs & sales from Oregon.

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drgary
Team HB

#34: Post by drgary »

Here are some pix to show the difference between the Millennium and late pre-Millennium groups. The first is Millennium, the two photos below it are pre-Millennium. Notice that the Millennium grouphead has more rounded edges. It also has a plastic cover over the sightglass and plastic fittings holding the sightglass in place that I have replaced with metal ones since this photo.




The pre-Millennium model in this case is the two switch high/low heating arrangement with no pressurestat. It has a very solid feel compared to the Millennium model but temperature needs to be controlled by barista technique. I don't know if this is true of all pre-Millennium models, but the sightglass here is partially protected by a metal sleeve instead of having a plastic cover.



The pressure-gauge is an easy add-on but a must-have and I find the temperature strip useful. I do temperature adjustment by switching it on and off and by chilling the portafilter. I've equipped it with an Elektra basket after grinding out the basket a bit. Some of the portafilters don't need to be modified this way to accommodate the deeper Elektra basket.

The Millennium model is so temperature stable I can adjust the group temperature by dipping the stock portafilter in cool water and either have it cool, body temperature, warm or hot. Steaming is adequate on this machine but the pre-Millennium model with the high switch activated is a very powerful steamer. I can let the Millennium machine coast for hours at temperature. My pre-Millennium model controls pressure if left on for more than a few minutes by constantly venting steam through the over-pressure valve at a temperature that needs cooling before pulling a shot. Leaving it on for many hours would risk running it dry and burning out the heating element.

Here's a great website that gives the history of these La Pavoni machines and their design changes over time. See the navigation bar on the left to see the details on different models: http://www.francescoceccarelli.eu/lapav ... ia_eng.htm
Gary
LMWDP#308

What I WOULD do for a good cup of coffee!

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Knock

#35: Post by Knock »

Thanks for pointing that one out DrG!

I guess that means the Millenium grouphead is carrying a considerable amount more brass then - if so then presumably we are looking at a fairly different heat sink profile - I suppose I'll need to spend some time getting used to the PreMill's timing then.
Peter Kilpatrick

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drgary
Team HB

#36: Post by drgary »

Knock,

I'm not quite sure why the Millennium is more temperature stable, whether there's more brass in the group or what? Christopher Cara has told me it's not because he replaced the plastic piston on mine with brass. Some people think it has something to do with the plastic sleeve. But Christopher emphasizes a properly set PSTAT. I'm just glad I happened upon that machine and started getting to know them.
Gary
LMWDP#308

What I WOULD do for a good cup of coffee!

calb

#37: Post by calb »

Millenium has only one button (the on-off switch). I believe pre millenium has 2 buttons.

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homeburrero
Team HB

#38: Post by homeburrero replying to calb »

That is usually but not always true. Late pre-M machines have the single switch and pStat. The best way to tell is to study Gary and Stefano's images, look close at the shape of the shoulder of the groupheads. Also look at that link Gary posted to Francesco Ceccarelli site. That site is great, and his 'LP Gallery' is the place to go when guessing the date of a pavoni.

My theory is that it's the inner plastic sleeve and the water inlet design that makes the millenium more temp stable, even if the pre-M has a plastic piston and a pStat. If you ignore the brass vs plastic piston, I don't think the millennium has more mass. The larger group has a bigger internal bore that allows space for the plastic cylinder (aka sleeve) and space for water around that cylinder. On millennium, the boiler siphon introduces water at the neck of the group to the space outside the cylinder and the cylinder has only one small inlet hole that allows water inside the group to enter the cylinder. On the pre-M, the cylinder wall is bored right into the grouphead's brass body, and water enters the cylinder via two inlet holes that are fed directly by the siphon tube. (Note - the millennium design is similar to the design of pre-1974 machines that had a brass sleeve inside the group.)

I have both, and have come to prefer the pre-M, which is outfitted with a pressure gauge and two temp strips - one 90C and below that tells me to heat it up more, and another 90C and above that tells me to cool it down. I usually brew at a low pressure (about .7 bar) and start my pull with the 90C temp going blue. I always use the Elektra double basket and a naked PF. But I do appreciate that the millennium would probably be a better machine for someone that wants to just turn it on, let it warm up, and pull a shot without fussing about pressure and temperature gauges.
Pat
nínádiishʼnahgo gohwééh náshdlį́į́h

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drgary
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#39: Post by drgary »

homeburrero wrote:I have both, and have come to prefer the pre-M, which is outfitted with a pressure gauge and two temp strips - one 90C and below that tells me to heat it up more, and another 90C and above that tells me to cool it down. I usually brew at a low pressure (about .7 bar) and start my pull with the 90C temp going blue. I always use the Elektra double basket and a naked PF. But I do appreciate that the millennium would probably be a better machine for someone that wants to just turn it on, let it warm up, and pull a shot without fussing about pressure and temperature gauges.
+1

If you look at the picture of my pre-M you'll see I've outfitted it that way. The only refinement on mine would be to add the OE temp strip for the higher temperature ranges. :D
Gary
LMWDP#308

What I WOULD do for a good cup of coffee!

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Knock

#40: Post by Knock »

Hello again,

Just to clarify where I was coming from: I wasn't suggesting that either one was more temp stable - I'm not in any position to comment on that as I am nowhere near experienced enough with the Pre Millenium, and am not someone who engages in split second timing or super accurate temp readings. I am in that respect, as it were, an espresso slob - especially at 5:30 in the morning!

That said what I meant was purely that they would probably behave differently due to the apparently larger volume of brass in one over the other. I'll probably start treating the Pre-Millenium more like my Cremina in terms of the infamous 3rd shot of the day - ie letting the portafilter cool a fair bit before I engage for pulling the shot.

Completely agree that many other factors are at play in any given machine - the caveat YMMV (your machine may vary) is probably the best precursor to "learn what works for you and yours".
Thanks for the info guys - helpful as ever.
Peter Kilpatrick