How many pulls on a La Pavoni Professional

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roanjohn
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#1: Post by roanjohn »

Quick poll: How many pulls do you guys do on a double shot La Pavoni? I'm wondering if I need to make my ground coarser - a double basket yields about 1-1.5 ounces on the first pull and water doesn't come out until the level is halfway. The second pull puts me on the 2 ounce mark. My beans weight 18 grams and when tamped it fills half the basket.

Any tips?

Just for reference, I use Baratza Vario on 1-G.

**I also can't choke my Pavoni at the finest setting 1-A on the Vario. Is that normal? I'm wondering if my tamping is not too strong**

DanoM
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#2: Post by DanoM »

I pull about 8 shots every morning on my La Pavoni, and all of them are singles. No 'fellini' moves or anything like that. Personally, my opinion is that's how you get the best shots on this machine.

I can tell the difference in the pull from a 5 to 10 second pre-infusion down to the second, depending on what the bean needs for dialing in. Some shots I change preinfusion by just one second to make a difference. If the pull is too hard, waiting for 2-3 seconds after starting will ease the rest of the shot. It's because of these experiences that I believe any fellini moves disturb your shot irreparably and recommend you stay away from it on at least the pre-millennium machines like mine.
Others obviously like the double pull, so to each their own. :)

Sounds like your Vario might need to be re-calibrated though. The La Pavoni normally likes coarser grinds than many espresso machines, and if you still can't choke it you're either running too fine, too coarse, or maybe old beans. I've had the too fine issue with my La Pavoni long ago, and coarsening the grind did help have firmer pulls.
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grog
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#3: Post by grog »

Is your goal quantity / volume, or do you prefer the flavor profile of a larger, more dilute shot? If the former, you may get optimal results simply by making multiple shots. If the latter, then you are probably on the right path with a double pull. I wouldn't do any more than that.
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roanjohn (original poster)
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#4: Post by roanjohn (original poster) »

DanoM wrote:I pull about 8 shots every morning on my La Pavoni, and all of them are singles. No 'fellini' moves or anything like that. Personally, my opinion is that's how you get the best shots on this machine.

I can tell the difference in the pull from a 5 to 10 second pre-infusion down to the second, depending on what the bean needs for dialing in. Some shots I change preinfusion by just one second to make a difference. If the pull is too hard, waiting for 2-3 seconds after starting will ease the rest of the shot. It's because of these experiences that I believe any fellini moves disturb your shot irreparably and recommend you stay away from it on at least the pre-millennium machines like mine.
Others obviously like the double pull, so to each their own. :)

Sounds like your Vario might need to be re-calibrated though. The La Pavoni normally likes coarser grinds than many espresso machines, and if you still can't choke it you're either running too fine, too coarse, or maybe old beans. I've had the too fine issue with my La Pavoni long ago, and coarsening the grind did help have firmer pulls.
@Dano - do you use the single basket or the double? And if so, how much ounces of fluid do you get from one pull?

I should probably weight my shots after to get a more consistent read. But yes, re-calibrating the vario might be the next move.

roanjohn (original poster)
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#5: Post by roanjohn (original poster) »

grog wrote:Is your goal quantity / volume, or do you prefer the flavor profile of a larger, more dilute shot? If the former, you may get optimal results simply by making multiple shots. If the latter, then you are probably on the right path with a double pull. I wouldn't do any more than that.
Honestly I don't know.........I'm technically a newbie so I not sure which is right or wrong. I am looking at youtube videos and some people do one pull and some do 2. Never more than that though.

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grog
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#6: Post by grog »

Maybe try two shots, prepped exactly the same - same coffee, dose, grind ,tamp. Pull one as a single pull of the lever, and the other with two pulls. See which you prefer. There really isn't a correct or incorrect approach - it's what you enjoy drinking. You can get super technical with how the shot is prepped and pulled, and there is a ton of information on all of that on this forum and elsewhere. Ultimately, you are the one drinking it so what you like, is 'correct'. There was a guy on here a couple of years ago who wanted to use a Pavoni to make an 8oz mug of coffee, by using a drip grind and just letting it flow with the lever up. I didn't really get it but he liked the results, so whatever, who am I to say. And of course your taste may change over time as your technique is refined by repetition and experience with various coffees. Or not.
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[creative nickname]
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#7: Post by [creative nickname] »

I usually do a single pull; with a double basket filled with 16g of coffee, this will typically yield about 24g of espresso.
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jone9081
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#8: Post by jone9081 »

I like 16 g into a double basket for a single firm pull. I hold the handle up about 10-12 seconds, usually no drips, and pull firmly for another 10-20 second depending on my mood and the coffee. I like the ristretto's .... thick and syrupy. I use really freshly roasted coffee as well, typically roasted within 2 weeks. Personally I prefer espresso blends instead of single source beans.... and definitely not light roasts :). I also like singles as well but make them only rarely and have forgotten the dose size; I do remember thinking that the single basket was very sensitive to dose and recommend you get one of those little scales that weigh to 0.1 g. If I weighed every single it worked great but otherwise very inconsistent without the scale for me. The singles were a more open taste that I liked but keep going back to the 16g doubles :).
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DanoM
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#9: Post by DanoM »

roanjohn wrote:@Dano - do you use the single basket or the double? And if so, how much ounces of fluid do you get from one pull?

I should probably weight my shots after to get a more consistent read. But yes, re-calibrating the vario might be the next move.
Here's my current methodology, and it works quite well for me.
  • I use the MCAL basket these days, loaded with 12g.
    Yield is somewhere in the neighborhood of 24-25g last I checked, but it's been quite a while.
    My boiler pressure is set for 1.1bar, and my machine is modified to keep it from overheating so that works fine.
    Preinfusion is 5 seconds, lever down on 6th second; sometimes preinfusion is up to 10 seconds on lighter roasts. (Never a spongy pull with 5 seconds preinfusion, but at 4 seconds sometimes I do notice the pull is a little spongy.)
    Pulls timed to about 25 seconds +/- 3. (Sometimes if I start the pull early it means an extra 10 seconds on the pull, late can lead to a faster/softer pull.)
    Pull temps depend on the bean, sometimes I start with the group at 92c, other times 95c, and expect a 2-3c climb during the pull.
My La Pavoni is modified from stock so the group is water heated rather than steam heated; like the original and later millenium model designs. It works very well for keeping the group temp stable.
For dialing in a La Pavoni I've found the best way is to coarsen the grind until the pull is too fast, then tighten just until you get enough resistance for a timed pull. Dialing in temp and preinfusion based on taste is paramount.

It's a pretty good machine once you learn how to work with it! Enjoy.
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jone9081
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#10: Post by jone9081 »

Hi Dano, you've inspired me to lighten my dose in the double basket a bit. I'll try the 12 instead of 16 and see how it works for me. Always enjoy a bit of taste testing.
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