cgibsong002 wrote:I continue to be torn on what machine to purchase, mostly because i just can't seem to find something i like in the sub $3000 price range (which seems ridiculous). Through my own results with my Infuser and lots of reading and discussions, 2 things seem clear: I really prefer light roasts, but i really hate sour shots. And for that i seem to need highly capable preinfusion. Recommendations have always gone to flow profiling E61, but something about fiddling with a little knob really bothers me. No one ever suggested a lever, but looking into them, I'm very intrigued. Looking at the Profitec 800, Bezzera Strega, Londinium Compressa.. I'm sure there are others.?

Something about these machines just sound right, and the advertised advantages - increased sweetness, reduced acidity, lots of control, very forgiving - seems ideal.

But they're also a bit confusing. I know they have immense control but i also know there's a lot of strange intricacies. How capable is the preinfusion? I think i understand you can go forever, but i also understand it may be at a set pressure depending on the machine.. maybe not enough or maybe too much? And maybe you run into heat issues depending as well? Some are at line pressure, some boiler, some have pumps.

It also seems the pressure profiling abilities are quite impressive, but it seems none of these machines have pressure gauges to really know where you're at?

In the end i want to be able to really excel with pulling low acidity light roasts, keeping things as simple as possible. I also make a decent amount of milk drinks. I think a lever might be the way to go, but i really want to better understand the pros and cons, especially compared to a Bianca for example.

I wouldn't be worried about profiling. Ultimately, the profile of a spring lever is most likely a good - if not great - option in most - if not all - cases.

Preinfusion, that could be different. Not advocating for the 6-bar PI of the LR, but I wonder whether 1.ish bar PI would be enough for very light roasts. I don't have experience with it, would be interesting to hear from owners of a spring lever that preinfuses at low pressure (eg L1).

robeambro wrote:Why would you say that is?

Because an E61 just can't keep up with saturated groups or some of the better modern designs, especially with lighter roasts. Kind of the same reason you can pull superb shots on KvdW machines without pressure profiling and all the other gimmicks. These groups are so much more temperature stable.

I tried pulling shots all day with Bianca and my own grinder and beans and could get very good E61 results but not my usual results. Reason was I wanted to buy a Bianca and we had a dutch meet at one of the resellers so we tested everything extensively.

robeambro wrote:I wouldn't be worried about profiling. Ultimately, the profile of a spring lever is most likely a good - if not great - option in most - if not all - cases.

Preinfusion, that could be different. Not advocating for the 6-bar PI of the LR, but I wonder whether 1.ish bar PI would be enough for very light roasts. I don't have experience with it, would be interesting to hear from owners of a spring lever that preinfuses at low pressure (eg L1).

I agree i think the preinfusion, from my reading and understanding, is what's most important. Profiling is nice (and i mean is naturally part of the lever), but i don't see a need to mess with that too much, regardless of the machine.

But PI is what i see the most having the biggest impact. And that seems to not just be related to time but also pressure. 30s is great but if the pressure isn't right it either won't saturate the whole puck or it starts extracting too early. It seems that's the biggest thing with the Decent, ability to saturate and then wait. E61 flow controls have that ability too but there's also a few threads with people having issues with it.

I love really good lever machines as they can make it pretty easy to pull great shots. Very easy PI is indeed key factor and that's a standard on lever machines. Also declining pressure towards the end in a lever profile makes shots softer.

robeambro wrote:I wouldn't be worried about profiling. Ultimately, the profile of a spring lever is most likely a good - if not great - option in most - if not all - cases.
Q
Preinfusion, that could be different. Not advocating for the 6-bar PI of the LR, but I wonder whether 1.ish bar PI would be enough for very light roasts. I don't have experience with it, would be interesting to hear from owners of a spring lever that preinfuses at low pressure (eg L1).

Maybe I can shine some light on this.
Although in the end, I feel the type of grinder and burrs, and obviously the quality of the coffee and roast has such an impact on results that it's very hard to compare between machines and extraction parameters, unless you can do a true side to side comparison...

So: Light roast and Londinium 1 (2013). Light roasts I buy are mostly SO omniroasts.
I have pulled shots on a 64mm Italmill flat burrs (G-iota) and 63mm conicals (Niche Zero).
I don't have any EY nor TDS numbers to share. This is only based on my palate. So, very subjective.

My usual technique with light roasts is grind finer, preinfuse at boiler pressure (1.4 bar for me) for 5 seconds, release and hold the lever at catch point for a 3 bar PI (10ish seconds) then let go of the lever. I find this gives me more clarity and tames the acidity a bit vs a typical spring lever pull (1 bar PI)
The difference is slim but it's there. I think.

Definitely not as noticeable as it would be to change the grind size in order to pull a 1:2 in 20-25 vs 1:2 in 30-35 let's say.

Where the L1 really shines is in forgiveness and repeatability. I'm pretty sure a LR or R24 would bring extra sweetness and clarity but I would assume the higher preinfusion can also expose less than perfect puck prep, average grind quality or undesirable flavors in certain coffees.

I remember playing around with line preinfusion on my late Bezzera B3000AL (it's not deceased... just in the caring hands of another HB member) and 2 bar PI on a certain medium roast tasted noticeably better than 3 bar PI.

I own other levers but I find it hard to compare vs my Londinium because of the difference in basket size, dose and grind. The difference is often more in the experience itself. I've had amazing shots on my Europiccola and La Peppina with light roasts. They are sometimes sweeter and smoother although the flavors can be more muted vs the L1.

When comparing with my Cafelat Robot, I notice the same thing. Since the pressure usually peaks at around 6 bars, the Robot shots can be smoother although not as clear and defined.

I guess I covered more than just 1 bar preinfusion vs higher PI pressure...

Since I'm always looking for new ways to improve my game, I've recently ordered a set of SSP multipurpose burrs. My goal is as simple as more clarity and sweetness.

I don't know if mathof will see this but he owns a L1 and a Monoflat with Shuriken. I'm sure he's got some interesting thoughts on preinfusion pressure and light roasts...

Cheers!

LObin wrote:Maybe I can shine some light on this.
Although in the end, I feel the type of grinder and burrs, and obviously the quality of the coffee and roast has such an impact on results that it's very hard to compare between machines and extraction parameters, unless you can do a true side to side comparison...

So: Light roast and Londinium 1 (2013). Light roasts I buy are mostly SO omniroasts.
I have pulled shots on a 64mm Italmill flat burrs (G-iota) and 63mm conicals (Niche Zero).
I don't have any EY nor TDS numbers to share. This is only based on my palate. So, very subjective.

My usual technique with light roasts is grind finer, preinfuse at boiler pressure (1.4 bar for me) for 5 seconds, release and hold the lever at catch point for a 3 bar PI (10ish seconds) then let go of the lever. I find this gives me more clarity and tames the acidity a bit vs a typical spring lever pull (1 bar PI)
The difference is slim but it's there. I think.

Definitely not as noticeable as it would be to change the grind size in order to pull a 1:2 in 20-25 vs 1:2 in 30-35 let's say.

Where the L1 really shines is in forgiveness and repeatability. I'm pretty sure a LR or R24 would bring extra sweetness and clarity but I would assume the higher preinfusion can also expose less than perfect puck prep, average grind quality or undesirable flavors in certain coffees.

I remember playing around with line preinfusion on my late Bezzera B3000AL (it's not deceased... just in the caring hands of another HB member) and 2 bar PI on a certain medium roast tasted noticeably better than 3 bar PI.

I own other levers but I find it hard to compare vs my Londinium because of the difference in basket size, dose and grind. The difference is often more in the experience itself. I've had amazing shots on my Europiccola and La Peppina with light roasts. They are sometimes sweeter and smoother although the flavors can be more muted vs the L1.

When comparing with my Cafelat Robot, I notice the same thing. Since the pressure usually peaks at around 6 bars, the Robot shots can be smoother although not as clear and defined.

I guess I covered more than just 1 bar preinfusion vs higher PI pressure...

Since I'm always looking for new ways to improve my game, I've recently ordered a set of SSP multipurpose burrs. My goal is as simple as more clarity and sweetness.

I don't know if mathof will see this but he owns a L1 and a Monoflat with Shuriken. I'm sure he's got some interesting thoughts on preinfusion pressure and light roasts...

Cheers!

Thank you! And mathof. I'm in a similar boat and I'm pondering what's the "best" choice but as you made it very clear, there's no such thing. There's just different choices.

erik82 wrote:Because an E61 just can't keep up with saturated groups or some of the better modern designs, especially with lighter roasts. Kind of the same reason you can pull superb shots on KvdW machines without pressure profiling and all the other gimmicks. These groups are so much more temperature stable.

I tried pulling shots all day with Bianca and my own grinder and beans and could get very good E61 results but not my usual results. Reason was I wanted to buy a Bianca and we had a dutch meet at one of the resellers so we tested everything extensively.

Thank you. To be honest I'm not too knowledgeable about this, I had read some thread in the past about an user moving from an E61 to a GS3 but I assumed it might have been confirmation bias. I am also not familiar with how the CT2 works, I've discounted that due to the price. Is there any other lever (including upcoming ones such as the Flair 58 and OE-1) that would share the same philosophy?

Jake_G wrote:This seems to be a very common misconception. I'm not saying that what you are doing doesn't work, simply that what you are doing isn't doing what you think you are doing.

If you hold the lever at any point, other than down, where the cylinder ports are exposed, you are "blooming". There is no linear correlation between a fixed lever position and a static pressure on the puck. Yes, there is map of peak pressure vs lever position as it relates to the compression of the spring, but remember that all the spring does is move the piston - the puck provides the back pressure as a function of resistance to flow. If you stop the piston, the flow is zero and any pressure above the puck will dissipate to zero as it "blooms".

The rate of decay is a function of the puck resistance (grind size, basket diameter and bed depth) and how much air is trapped above the puck, which varies by machine design, PI pressure & duration, as well as headspace.

When you hold the lever, you are stopping the flow. This is analogous to the Bloom phase on a DE1, closing the needle valve on a flow control machine, or stopping the pump (with the 3 way valve open!) on a "normal" pump machine.

Cheers!

- Jake

Oh oh... I've been schooled!
Thanks a lot for the explanation Jake!

I do have a question regarding what a portafilter gage reads when holding the lever at catch point...

I found this video that shows this profiling technique with a Pro 800: If the piston doesn't move, shouldn't the gage read 0 bar?
Is it eventually going to get down to 0 if you wait long enough?
Curious to hear your thoughts!


Cheers!