Flair 58 - Page 52

A haven dedicated to manual espresso machine aficionados.
Rabh
Posts: 42
Joined: 3 years ago

#511: Post by Rabh »

renatoa wrote:I am amazed you can use such low quantity of grounds on you Robot, which is also a 58 mm machine.
On our local forums the Robot users complains about "at least 16 grams needed" to get a satisfactory extraction.
This is probably because you don't have a real pressure monitoring, so my guess you are extracting at 3-4 bars, at most.
It is impossible to extract at 6 bars, with a flat bottom basket as is in Robot, the coffee bed is simply too thin to obtain this pressure.
Tried a lot of conical baskets to be able to obtain a satisfactory extraction on a 58 machine, using less than 15 grams, and finally abandoned.
None of them can't match what I get from 14.4 grams extracted on a Flair Signature at 6-7 real bars.
So, if you want to try a Flair with little coffee, look at Signature line, not even Pro, and forget 58 !
Ok, that's an interesting perspective, because I've made about 200 shots, and don't feel like I've ever struggled with 12g or 13g. My sink shots were when I first got the machine, and being my first ever espresso machine there was a bit of a learning curve. The gauge reports about 6 to 8 bar depending on how much force I decide to use. The shots have been fairly sweet, definitely no sourness. Perhaps it helps that I use a mesh screen, though I originally was using the filter papers that came with the Robot.

I've never tried with as low as 10g, but I dont tend to have any tamping issues at 12/13g.

Jonk
Posts: 2175
Joined: 4 years ago

#512: Post by Jonk »

FWIW I share the opinion that the sweet spot for the Robot basket is 16g+

..but that is also the amount I had best luck with in the Flair Classic since the shower screen was fixed. Coarse grinds!

The 49-50mm "double" baskets are great for those small doses.

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Rabh
Posts: 42
Joined: 3 years ago

#513: Post by Rabh »

In an ideal world I think everybody has unique expectations, and tastes. I just wish there was a way of paying to rent machines for a short period (even a couple of days) to be able to try before buying. Sadly there are no coffee shops near me in London which have a Flair 58 on display, let alone being used to make drinks.

jpender
Posts: 3860
Joined: 11 years ago

#514: Post by jpender »

The exact dose that is a minimum for use with the stock tamper in the Robot depends on the coffee and also the grind. For the Robot it's something in the 12-14g range with darker roasted coffees allowing for lower doses.

I found with such a small, thin puck that the results were less predictable, more variable. I had both a sour and a bitter shot that went into the sink. The others, the drinkable ones, were each a little different. For me it was just an experiment, a look-and-see, since I didn't really believe it would work at all, never mind work as well as it did. But even though I can't claim perfect consistency at 16g-18g doses I think it's easier than trying to pull smaller shots. And lots of much more experienced people will attest to that as well.

I just wonder... why? What's the advantage of a smaller dose? Do you think it makes better coffee? Or do you just want a smaller amount of coffee?

Rabh
Posts: 42
Joined: 3 years ago

#515: Post by Rabh replying to jpender »

Perhaps that is it - I rarely have light roasts, almost always medium, some medium-dark.

That's a good question. For me the reason for the smaller dose is two-fold. Firstly I prefer long blacks (i.e. a small topup of hot water), but nothing too strong in flavour, and just generally less volume of coffee. But also I find that if I have a higher dose I tend to get more acidity with the coarser grind, and if I go finer then the amount of effort required is quite a lot to get the right pressure. So overall the balance is better for me at the 13g level.

Rabh
Posts: 42
Joined: 3 years ago

#516: Post by Rabh »

I forgot to mention, I'm using a Helor 106, which has 71mm conical Mazzer Robur burrs.

HedonisticBeans
Posts: 118
Joined: 10 years ago

#517: Post by HedonisticBeans »

Found a 6 month old flair 58 for $390.

How many updates have there been since release?

Assuming this is the one without the updated plunger thing.

Is $390 fair?

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K7
Posts: 416
Joined: 4 years ago

#518: Post by K7 »

Rabh wrote:I'm currently rocking a Cafelat Robot (paired with a conical Helor 106 hand grinder), and whilst I love the brews I get, I've got a bit of "is the grass greener on the other side" syndrome. I've been giving some serious thought to the Flair 58, though I had one question. I currently go with 13g of coffee in, 26g out. The ability to use vst/ims baskets on the Flair 58 really appeals, bearing in mind I don't have the ability to change the portafilter on the Robot.

Is anybody else using such a low dosage of 12g to 13g? As far as I know most people tend to go for the 18g to 20g range, and I couldn't see any reviews mentioning how it fares with a much lower dosage.

Thanks in advance.
Rabh wrote:Perhaps that is it - I rarely have light roasts, almost always medium, some medium-dark.

That's a good question. For me the reason for the smaller dose is two-fold. Firstly I prefer long blacks (i.e. a small topup of hot water), but nothing too strong in flavour, and just generally less volume of coffee. But also I find that if I have a higher dose I tend to get more acidity with the coarser grind, and if I go finer then the amount of effort required is quite a lot to get the right pressure. So overall the balance is better for me at the 13g level.
I dose ~14g all the time on my Flair 58. A key selling point of the 58 is that you can choose from a variety of 3rd party baskets. Currently I play with 4 IMS baskets along with the stock "low flow" basket:
- IMS BaristaPro 15g
- IMS Competition 12-18g
- E&B IMS Precision 12-14g
- E&B IMS Superfine 14-16g
They all work well for low dose like 14g. I choose based on flow requirement. For medium and darker roasts, no problem getting 8 bar pressure. But for light roasts, yes, to avoid channeling I usually stay at <5 bar. I also have a couple of low dose LM baskets but haven't tried those yet.

As for the merit of low dose, I personally feel I get a bit more clarity from them. Perhaps due to more even extraction vertically? I think low dose also helps with temperature if your machine is, shall I say, thermally challenged like the Robot (and Flair 58, if you want the hottest possible). For example, everything else being constant, 14g puck brews about 1.2C hotter than 18g puck.

Rabh
Posts: 42
Joined: 3 years ago

#519: Post by Rabh replying to K7 »

Thanks K7, that's exactly what I was hoping the answer would be. I feel like I'm missing out a bit by not being able to use a variety of baskets. And that's an interesting point about the temperature stability, which I hadn't appreciated.

Now to see if I can find a reasonably priced Flair 58 in the UK...

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Paul_Pratt
Posts: 1467
Joined: 19 years ago

#520: Post by Paul_Pratt »

renatoa wrote:It is impossible to extract at 6 bars, with a flat bottom basket as is in Robot, the coffee bed is simply too thin to obtain this pressure.
This is simply not true. I know I have no business in this thread but I can't let this pass. Maybe I can make a new thread, but what you have written is simply not true.