Flair 58 - Page 52
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Ok, that's an interesting perspective, because I've made about 200 shots, and don't feel like I've ever struggled with 12g or 13g. My sink shots were when I first got the machine, and being my first ever espresso machine there was a bit of a learning curve. The gauge reports about 6 to 8 bar depending on how much force I decide to use. The shots have been fairly sweet, definitely no sourness. Perhaps it helps that I use a mesh screen, though I originally was using the filter papers that came with the Robot.renatoa wrote:I am amazed you can use such low quantity of grounds on you Robot, which is also a 58 mm machine.
On our local forums the Robot users complains about "at least 16 grams needed" to get a satisfactory extraction.
This is probably because you don't have a real pressure monitoring, so my guess you are extracting at 3-4 bars, at most.
It is impossible to extract at 6 bars, with a flat bottom basket as is in Robot, the coffee bed is simply too thin to obtain this pressure.
Tried a lot of conical baskets to be able to obtain a satisfactory extraction on a 58 machine, using less than 15 grams, and finally abandoned.
None of them can't match what I get from 14.4 grams extracted on a Flair Signature at 6-7 real bars.
So, if you want to try a Flair with little coffee, look at Signature line, not even Pro, and forget 58 !
I've never tried with as low as 10g, but I dont tend to have any tamping issues at 12/13g.
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FWIW I share the opinion that the sweet spot for the Robot basket is 16g+
..but that is also the amount I had best luck with in the Flair Classic since the shower screen was fixed. Coarse grinds!
The 49-50mm "double" baskets are great for those small doses.
..but that is also the amount I had best luck with in the Flair Classic since the shower screen was fixed. Coarse grinds!
The 49-50mm "double" baskets are great for those small doses.
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In an ideal world I think everybody has unique expectations, and tastes. I just wish there was a way of paying to rent machines for a short period (even a couple of days) to be able to try before buying. Sadly there are no coffee shops near me in London which have a Flair 58 on display, let alone being used to make drinks.
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The exact dose that is a minimum for use with the stock tamper in the Robot depends on the coffee and also the grind. For the Robot it's something in the 12-14g range with darker roasted coffees allowing for lower doses.
I found with such a small, thin puck that the results were less predictable, more variable. I had both a sour and a bitter shot that went into the sink. The others, the drinkable ones, were each a little different. For me it was just an experiment, a look-and-see, since I didn't really believe it would work at all, never mind work as well as it did. But even though I can't claim perfect consistency at 16g-18g doses I think it's easier than trying to pull smaller shots. And lots of much more experienced people will attest to that as well.
I just wonder... why? What's the advantage of a smaller dose? Do you think it makes better coffee? Or do you just want a smaller amount of coffee?
I found with such a small, thin puck that the results were less predictable, more variable. I had both a sour and a bitter shot that went into the sink. The others, the drinkable ones, were each a little different. For me it was just an experiment, a look-and-see, since I didn't really believe it would work at all, never mind work as well as it did. But even though I can't claim perfect consistency at 16g-18g doses I think it's easier than trying to pull smaller shots. And lots of much more experienced people will attest to that as well.
I just wonder... why? What's the advantage of a smaller dose? Do you think it makes better coffee? Or do you just want a smaller amount of coffee?
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Perhaps that is it - I rarely have light roasts, almost always medium, some medium-dark.
That's a good question. For me the reason for the smaller dose is two-fold. Firstly I prefer long blacks (i.e. a small topup of hot water), but nothing too strong in flavour, and just generally less volume of coffee. But also I find that if I have a higher dose I tend to get more acidity with the coarser grind, and if I go finer then the amount of effort required is quite a lot to get the right pressure. So overall the balance is better for me at the 13g level.
That's a good question. For me the reason for the smaller dose is two-fold. Firstly I prefer long blacks (i.e. a small topup of hot water), but nothing too strong in flavour, and just generally less volume of coffee. But also I find that if I have a higher dose I tend to get more acidity with the coarser grind, and if I go finer then the amount of effort required is quite a lot to get the right pressure. So overall the balance is better for me at the 13g level.
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I forgot to mention, I'm using a Helor 106, which has 71mm conical Mazzer Robur burrs.
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Found a 6 month old flair 58 for $390.
How many updates have there been since release?
Assuming this is the one without the updated plunger thing.
Is $390 fair?
How many updates have there been since release?
Assuming this is the one without the updated plunger thing.
Is $390 fair?
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Rabh wrote:I'm currently rocking a Cafelat Robot (paired with a conical Helor 106 hand grinder), and whilst I love the brews I get, I've got a bit of "is the grass greener on the other side" syndrome. I've been giving some serious thought to the Flair 58, though I had one question. I currently go with 13g of coffee in, 26g out. The ability to use vst/ims baskets on the Flair 58 really appeals, bearing in mind I don't have the ability to change the portafilter on the Robot.
Is anybody else using such a low dosage of 12g to 13g? As far as I know most people tend to go for the 18g to 20g range, and I couldn't see any reviews mentioning how it fares with a much lower dosage.
Thanks in advance.
I dose ~14g all the time on my Flair 58. A key selling point of the 58 is that you can choose from a variety of 3rd party baskets. Currently I play with 4 IMS baskets along with the stock "low flow" basket:Rabh wrote:Perhaps that is it - I rarely have light roasts, almost always medium, some medium-dark.
That's a good question. For me the reason for the smaller dose is two-fold. Firstly I prefer long blacks (i.e. a small topup of hot water), but nothing too strong in flavour, and just generally less volume of coffee. But also I find that if I have a higher dose I tend to get more acidity with the coarser grind, and if I go finer then the amount of effort required is quite a lot to get the right pressure. So overall the balance is better for me at the 13g level.
- IMS BaristaPro 15g
- IMS Competition 12-18g
- E&B IMS Precision 12-14g
- E&B IMS Superfine 14-16g
They all work well for low dose like 14g. I choose based on flow requirement. For medium and darker roasts, no problem getting 8 bar pressure. But for light roasts, yes, to avoid channeling I usually stay at <5 bar. I also have a couple of low dose LM baskets but haven't tried those yet.
As for the merit of low dose, I personally feel I get a bit more clarity from them. Perhaps due to more even extraction vertically? I think low dose also helps with temperature if your machine is, shall I say, thermally challenged like the Robot (and Flair 58, if you want the hottest possible). For example, everything else being constant, 14g puck brews about 1.2C hotter than 18g puck.
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Thanks K7, that's exactly what I was hoping the answer would be. I feel like I'm missing out a bit by not being able to use a variety of baskets. And that's an interesting point about the temperature stability, which I hadn't appreciated.
Now to see if I can find a reasonably priced Flair 58 in the UK...
Now to see if I can find a reasonably priced Flair 58 in the UK...
- Paul_Pratt
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This is simply not true. I know I have no business in this thread but I can't let this pass. Maybe I can make a new thread, but what you have written is simply not true.renatoa wrote:It is impossible to extract at 6 bars, with a flat bottom basket as is in Robot, the coffee bed is simply too thin to obtain this pressure.