K7 wrote:Q: Has anyone done a temperature study on this? From what I've seen from Flair pre-lease videos, it should be very solid, but I would be curious to know if someone did a study with a Scace or something similar, especially for back-to-back shots.

A: study... why measure, when you can "follow the heat", as in forensic they "follow the money"

Let's evaluate where are the heat losses point and how big are they ?

I'd love to know if someone has done temperature tests too. Mine seems to be running a tad hot even at setting 2.

If for your senses setting 2 is a tad hot, why not trying setting 1 ?

Any help if someone jump and claim setting 2 is 88 C degrees ? Is the cup suddenly better ?

Or, an alternative approach... if you own or have access to a PIDed machine, let them heat side by side, and do a flush when stable, having thermometers in same cup, and see how they compare. The cups should have same temperature for the best result.

renatoa wrote:You can read here the differences:

https://flairespresso.com/product/flair-58x/

Short story: puck screen, new plunger, and more solid frame/lever.

Probably the new plunger only is subject of free update, I guess...

Where do you get it has a more solid frame/lever, it's something it also say in the electric version, heck it even stated the same in the original version.

I know the brew group has been altered so it can no longer use the dispersion screen, but besides that and new plunger I don't think there is much new. Personally I will wait and see there certainly will be more fundamental upgrade to the group down the line, so for those of us with the original version I'm not convinced it's the right point to upgrade.

Also the Flair58x is the manual version, it where made available early on.

Odd with the running hot on 2, I constantly use 3 and it's certainly not too hot there it roughly corresponds to what they initially said. Perhaps there is something wrong with your control unit, try measure it.

The valve workflow is significantly more streamlined than the previous version. A few advantages:
1. You can just leave the gauge in place at all times. No fiddling or having to remove that.
2. You can also pull up quickly after a shot without causing suction
3. You can hack a spro over by pulling up, refilling and doing a second pull
4. You can fill the chamber without the water contacting the puck so you can allow the temperature to equilibrate before lifting the lever and pulling the shot.

As for the temperature, how are you measuring it to check whether it's inline with they said? I measured with a blind basket and one light is around 85C but 2 very slowly trickles up to boiling (97 where I live) and 3 moves quickly up to boiling. I also noticed that the top of the brew chamber gets a lot hotter a lot quicker than the middle and bottom.

Raglo wrote: The valve workflow is significantly more streamlined than the previous version. A few advantages:
1. You can just leave the gauge in place at all times. No fiddling or having to remove that.
2. You can also pull up quickly after a shot without causing suction
3. You can hack a spro over by pulling up, refilling and doing a second pull
4. You can fill the chamber without the water contacting the puck so you can allow the temperature to equilibrate before lifting the lever and pulling the shot.

As for the temperature, how are you measuring it to check whether it's inline with they said? I measured with a blind basket and one light is around 85C but 2 very slowly trickles up to boiling (97 where I live) and 3 moves quickly up to boiling. I also noticed that the top of the brew chamber gets a lot hotter a lot quicker than the middle and bottom.

Water open means you have evaporation and cooling to the air. The heater should not be strong enough in current iteration for it to keep temps, so I'm bit sceptical about equilibrate, as it's fundamentally just there to preheat the group.

The twice pull is not something I ever really needed on a lever, I can do 1:2.5 on the Flair58 that is plenty fine for most coffees. You need to go like 1:3-1:4 for that, so it's perhaps most nice to have in those rare cases where a coffee would showcase something else, but with a lever I never experienced the need as much as with a "flat" pressure pump machine for such long pulls.

As I don't really do back to back as it's an ego brewer in most cases, it's not a massive hassle to remove the gauge piston, however I can see if you brew in succession that it would be rather annoying thing to have to do. The suction effect is just the case with most machines but it's nice that is gone again mostly for those who pull more then once.

Again if you pull allot of shorts daily on it, then yes the upgrade might be worth it, but for the one-two shots I do, when I use it (I have days where I don't use it at all) the upgrade simply isn't big enough. I'm still first and foremost filter/drip coffee drinker, espresso is just secondary to me, that is why I find the Flair58 perfect.

It is measured several ways but without water, with water and doing pulls. 97c seems way off with setting two, I would contact flair and hear what they have to say.

renatoa wrote:A: study... why measure, when you can "follow the heat", as in forensic they "follow the money"

Let's evaluate where are the heat losses point and how big are they ?

One can make assumptions and analyze on paper to death, but it's unlikely to be realistic enough to be very useful IMHO.
One major unknown is how does the heater work? Take Strietman CT2 for example. It took someone to actually measure to recognize that temperature can vary up to 9F depending where you are on the heating cycle. I would guess the 58 also has a heating cycle and I definitely would want to know if it swings as much as 9F, and if so, how I can time my pull so I get temp-consistent shots.

Another thing is unit-to-unit variance due to manufacturing variance/error. Depending on quality and/or positioning of the temp sensor of the heater, one unit's temp could be quite a bit off from another, I think. (This probably applies to many other consumer espresso machines.)

Good thing the Flair sports a standard 58mm PF so it shouldn't be hard/costly to sacrifice a $5 basket to take some measurements if one is so inclined.

That means that all the engineers on this planet aren't interested about coffee... except ME
Or not picky to such a degree about brew accuracy...

Yes, everything can be computed, already did better than reality simulations for roaster machines that don't allow measuring beans temperature.
And how the heater works doesn't care if you can hack it work as you want, or should be...

If you want answers, and solutions, send me one and I'll give you back a better machine, granted !
If they hadn't built on that damned commercial 58 system would have already done it myself...

PS: 9F/5C is the typical hysteresis of a bimetal thermocouple, all you have to do is simply extract when the lamp goes off and you always have same temperature.

K7 wrote:One can make assumptions and analyze on paper to death, but it's unlikely to be realistic enough to be very useful IMHO.
One major unknown is how does the heater work? Take Strietman CT2 for example. It took someone to actually measure to recognize that temperature can vary up to 9F depending where you are on the heating cycle. I would guess the 58 also has a heating cycle and I definitely would want to know if it swings as much as 9F, and if so, how I can time my pull so I get temp-consistent shots.

Another thing is unit-to-unit variance due to manufacturing variance/error. Depending on quality and/or positioning of the temp sensor of the heater, one unit's temp could be quite a bit off from another, I think. (This probably applies to many other consumer espresso machines.)

Good thing the Flair sports a standard 58mm PF so it shouldn't be hard/costly to sacrifice a $5 basket to take some measurements if one is so inclined.

This might be the single worst machine to buy for those fanatic about it, as you have no indication or easy way to get the necessary data out.

But it certainly has a heating circle, but hitting the same won't be easy. Also I would be surprised if there isn't a noticeable difference if you let the water sit in long enough.

renatoa wrote: PS: 9F/5C is the typical hysteresis of a bimetal thermocouple, all you have to do is simply extract when the lamp goes off and you always have same temperature.

I like that idea! Does the 58 have a light that goes on and off for steady state heating cycle? If not, I guess a cheap wall power meter may do.