DamianWarS wrote:Espresso culture has moved on from ready lights. I'm sure you're quite right, but I still want to see a temp number.

I'm not sure where they'd put the sensor. This is not a water-filled boiler with relatively uniform heat distribution. You'd have to attach a sensor somewhere and that point might be at desired temp but 1 inch somewhere else it would be quite different. It's like Hoffmann who reviewed HX machines and suggested he'd like to see, not the PID reading of the steam boiler, but to have the manufacturers do the math and get a brew water reading.. Pretty unrealistic.. You'd see a number and you could still have your brew water off by 20 degrees due to a ton of factors.. And, if you see some recent posts where boilers over-heated, you'll see sensor issues are just another point of failure.. I don't think a number/PID would make any difference in your extraction.

That's a good point. But there is a sensor in there somewhere now. Would it be worthless information to know what it's reading?

The current design has an LED indicator for when you've reached the set point. Flair says that usually takes about 3 minutes. But Flair also suggests waiting about 10 minutes to fully heat the device. In other words, their indicator isn't telling you the whole story. It would be nice if there were visual feedback on this additional heating. Perhaps the existing sensor reflects that. Or maybe a second sensor would be needed.

Or maybe the Flair 58 isn't the right place for this sort of thing.

Bluenoser wrote:I'm not sure where they'd put the sensor. This is not a water-filled boiler with relatively uniform heat distribution. You'd have to attach a sensor somewhere and that point might be at desired temp but 1 inch somewhere else it would be quite different. It's like Hoffmann who reviewed HX machines and suggested he'd like to see, not the PID reading of the steam boiler, but to have the manufacturers do the math and get a brew water reading.. Pretty unrealistic.. You'd see a number and you could still have your brew water off by 20 degrees due to a ton of factors.. And, if you see some recent posts where boilers over-heated, you'll see sensor issues are just another point of failure.. I don't think a number/PID would make any difference in your extraction.

then they can do that math and show the usable number explaining what it means buried in its documentation or maybe 2 numbers, the live feedback, and the one based on an algorithm and/or a secondary sensor. maybe the temp bounces around a lot so there is some temperature smoothing required but clearly, they are doing some maths to know what triggers their ready lights.

give it some time, JH will do a video on it and he will bust out his Scace Thermofilter

Jonk wrote:Could also be a simple timer with no sensor. We don't know the details.

Andrew at Flair said in a video that it takes about 3 minutes, depending on the ambient temperature. And if you recently pulled a shot how could a timer work?

There's a sensor placed on the outside of the cylinder, and when it reaches set temp it will maintain within a couple degrees by cycling current on/off. Within 3 min your desired preheat temp, be it L/M/H, will be reached as measured at that point source, and acknowledged by sensor (both with audible beep and flashing light turned solid), but the recommendation is to allow several more minutes to allow temp to stabilize much the same way we allow it for our roasters. My Bullet R1 for instance makes me wait another 10 min or so after it first reaches temp before it gives me the charge command. Calculations on material would be difficult to use as a way to provide more accuracy given unknowns such as the portafilter material (users can swap in), whether a portafilter is in fact connected during preheat, basket and dosed used, ambient temp etc...

The Kettle was always meant to be the final arbiter of your brewing temp and as such we believed that having 3 simple preheat setting (note not brew temp settings) was sufficient to obtain repeatable results if the brewing water temp is properly managed.

Yep, it's optimal to get a kettle that will give you a precise temp.

Haven't seen an mention of a non electric version of the Flair 58, but have heard rumors. Not sure why someone would buy the non electric version...it's why I bought my 58.

I suppose if you plan to use a Flair 58 in a location without electricity, being able to buy one at a discount without the group heater would make sense.