In some youtube review of the Flair 58 a version without the electrical parts was mentioned. Today I found the 58x-version online - looking forward to some reviews on this version as well - wonder how it measures against the Robot/pro2. Any thoughts?

http://www.jcoffeethailand.com/serviced ... ic-version

if it is not on the official website then it doesn't exist!

Thanks, I am sure you are correct. I found the video where Kyle Rowsell mentions the non electrical version, it's 12:35 in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNZcwS8_5Sg

also seems to have been verified by Flair, but as you said the previous link might not show the real deal.

But since it (according to Kyle, and he seems to be legit) obviously seems to be on the road map - what do you think of the idea, any market for such a machine compared to previous models.

Flair likes to offer upgrades for their machines so much so it's seems a part of their business plan and perhaps a model for customer retention. Maybe flair has a road map to upgrade the electrical components like a PID controller of some sort instead of the low, medium, high settings. Since they entered the 58mm space they can't really expect to sell lots of tampers and baskets because they are competing in a bigger space but for their proprietary parts they can and I'm guessing will. Offering a version without the electrical parts may hint to this system. It's called planned obsoletence and companies do it all the time (and flair seems to do it). Why offer the best version the first time when you can offer upgrades for years to come.

Without speculating about Flair's motives, we do know that 58x was requested by many customers. Not sure how much sense it makes to save $70 or so and end up with much worse workflow, but if that's what people want..

On the other hand, I think having no electronics is the opposite of planned obsolescence.

DamianWarS wrote:Flair likes to offer upgrades for their machines so much so it's seems a part of their business plan and perhaps a model for customer retention. Maybe flair has a road map to upgrade the electrical components like a PID controller of some sort instead of the low, medium, high settings. Since they entered the 58mm space they can't really expect to sell lots of tampers and baskets because they are competing in a bigger space but for their proprietary parts they can and I'm guessing will. Offering a version without the electrical parts may hint to this system. It's called planned obsoletence and companies do it all the time (and flair seems to do it). Why offer the best version the first time when you can offer upgrades for years to come.

That's why I didn't sell my Robot for this potentially marginally superior experience. I can't stand that. Paul spent years making a single Robot. No upgrades in sight, been perfected, IMO, since day one.

I actually pray there never comes a time for the "Robot 2". It's best to move on to something entirely different. I remember when I got my first Flair PRO the PRO 2 was announced a few weeks later. I bought, tried, and sold both very quickly.

No thanks.

flair has a lot of hype but I don't really like this apparent business model. they have a Accessories option on their website where essentially every product they have in their lineup has upgrade options and I'm pretty sure the 58 will be soon listed on it with its upgrade options so it feels like this is just part of their culture. I'm fine with base models and premium models I just would rather transparency from the start rather than buying something and then they upgrade it and give you options to buy new parts for your now outdated machine. So I might wait until the hype wears off and keep checking their website to see what other Flair58 options pop up.

But who cares? you pay for a product and are delivered that product so you got what you paid for. This is right of course, but what I think a clear upgradable option is this heating element and I think I just want to see a temp number on there rather than a ready light and with PIDs flooding the market it seems odd to me what it's not already this way (unless of course, it's by design) so I'll wait until they release the PID heat controller (because I'm pretty sure they will) then I'll make a decision on if I want it.

A PID doesn't make much sense in a system where you pour the hot water in with a kettle. It's not so precise to begin with, but the low - mid - high should be enough coupled with a temperature controlled kettle to make meaningful adjustments.

Jonk wrote:A PID doesn't make much sense in a system where you pour the hot water in with a kettle. It's not so precise to begin with, but the low - mid - high should be enough coupled with a temperature controlled kettle to make meaningful adjustments.

I agree with that. But at the same time you probably won't be surprised that I think it would be nice to know what the temperature is before and during the shot.

Jonk wrote:A PID doesn't make much sense in a system where you pour the hot water in with a kettle. It's not so precise to begin with, but the low - mid - high should be enough coupled with a temperature controlled kettle to make meaningful adjustments.

Espresso culture has moved on from ready lights. I'm sure you're quite right, but I still want to see a temp number.