Flair 58 - Page 22

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#211: Post by Brewzologist »

Yep, I am in no rush either as I'm quite happy with my PRO2 for now. If I were in your shoes I'd wait too; the Bianca is a great machine from what I can tell. As for the Flair 58 vs OE1 vs ??? I'll wait to see how they perform in real world tests. If money were no object I'd probably get a CT2 as it's a gorgeous and well built machine. But there appears to be a lot of activity in this segment so will wait awhile to see what emerges. Regardless, I'll likely add a SEP pressure sensor to what ever I end up with.


#212: Post by malling »

robeambro wrote:Thanks both for the replies, @malling @Brewzologist .

To be honest I am sort of inclined of purchasing something and try it next to the Bianca, and then decide.. Now, I think I'll take my time (the great thing of being in no rush), I'll wait and see if the OE1 is going to deliver - in which case, I'm really tempted to overlook the Flair 58.

As Flair aficionados, would you take the Flair over that?
Different beast, the Flair is from the look at the design perspective much more versatile in terms of profiling capabilities, you don't seem to have the same limitations in pressure you typically have with these machines (whether that is useful is a different debate, but at least you have the ability). The OE-1 is from what I can see more limited due too the spring configuration (6 or 8bar at the top and a classic spring profile) and that the pressure would be pretty difficult to cramp op or control nearly as well in manual configuration due to its modest lever arm seize, a configuration I'm sceptical many would end up using, it just doesn't look nearly as pleasant to use in manual mode, I much prefer something as over dimensioned and ergonomically designed as the Flair58 if I have to resort to manual control, one complaint I often had with allot of these small home levers.

But The OE-1 is probably somewhat easier out of the box and doesn't need the same attention to details when pulling, as you can be guided by a spring and an app, it's also able to do milk based beverages.

The flair58 is probably more for espresso purists on a budget, like a poor mana Streitman CT2, and for people who like to tinker and experiment or just want it as manually possible.

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#213: Post by robeambro »

I'd never considered that the OE-1 would be difficult to use in manual mode, that's a good point. I have no idea of how difficult it would be to calibrate pressure.

I don't quite know yet if I want full control or consistent repeatability (ie manual or spring!), they both have their pros and cons! Life is so hard :lol:


#214: Post by vit »

Repeatability in non-spring manual levers can be some kind of issue, because main part of extraction greatly depends on the preinfusion phase. Longer the preinfusion, higher the flow in main phase and usually there is a need for some declining pressure profile. Using the pressure meter (or scale in my case, but it's pretty much equally good with 1 seal piston on Classic) it's hard to do it the same way every time. So many lever users decide to use a constant pressure PI for certain amount of time and then raise because it's easier to do it manually than follow some predefined pressure profile ... Constan flow preinfusion is actually easier to achieve (you just try to move the lever constant speed) but again, hard to make it similar speed every time

It also depends on the grinder. First 2 years I was using Feldgrind that wasn't up to the task of making a good espresso and all shots with longer preinfusion were worse than with faster ramp up. Kinu is much better, but even with it, I can't say that shots with longer preinfusion are better to my taste - just a bit different. Flat grinder might be better - but I don't need another big item in the kitchen

Main reason why I'm using Flair instead of my cheap single boiler machine is because it's maintenance free and machine is ready for brew in a few minutes, while with SBDU I need about 15 min for the whole heating and temperature surfing process, while the quality (if I hit the correct temperature which is hard with that machine) is pretty much on the similar level. I needed some tweaks on both machines as well. For the grinder I have and coffees available locally, I don't need the feature of pressure profiling, so spring lever machine would do it for me as well, maybe even better ...


#215: Post by renatoa »

"cheap" and "portable", check none... :) artisanal... maybe...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ka ... ee-machine

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#216: Post by tompoland »

Bluenoser wrote:You read stuff on the Decent and you see one of the most popular profiles is the Londinium.. so basically the Decent is imitating a lever.
Um ... no. Sorry but that's a rather large oversimplification. Londinium is just one of innumerable options and based on the Decent community message board it would not be in the top 5 of most commonly used presents.


#217: Post by robeambro » replying to tompoland »

Tom, since you're here.. Have you ever written here on HB how you would compare a similarly-profiled (I would say identically profiled, but we know that would be impossible) a shot pulled on your DE and on your manual lever? I had some doubts a few posts above (#790014) if you could have a look at it, would be nice to have your perspective on this.

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#218: Post by malling »

renatoa wrote:"cheap" and "portable", check none... :) artisanal... maybe...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ka ... ee-machine
That is pretty steampunk design, I'm not sure I'm getting it.


#219: Post by malling »

There is a SSP Smart espresso profiler that theoretically would make following certain pre defined profiling much easier to do. I know it's an extra (expensive: $410) gadget that also requires an Acaia (+$ 224 for the Lunar). Need to be said I never used one, I only used these with or without a gauge, I tended to mostly to follow the flow as it where easier, especially without and feedback, and those tiny pressure gauge isn't exactly precision instruments.

It might be a little ridiculous to spend more on gadgets to the espresso machine then on the espresso machine it self :lol:

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#220: Post by Brewzologist »

Agree that precise repeatability with manual levers is affected by design. Earlier Flairs were tested with the SEP pressure sensor and app and it was apparently challenging for users to follow a previous pressure profile easily. This is where the longer lever arm of the 58 and CT2 may help for example.

That said, even without this technology, I'm able to get consistently good shots on my PRO2 by feel and watching the naked PF with a shot mirror. I think this is what many like about manual levers; the simplicity of pulling a shot of good quality by adjusting during the pull so it doesn't end up down the sink.

So adding the tech gadgets are a bit of a personal choice. I currently use an Acaia Lunar scale and the free SEP app daily to 'pour' profile my V60's. This has helped me understand the variables that affect repeatability in pour-overs better. And I now have fewer instances where I wonder why the timing and/or taste of my brews are off.

So for me, I will definitely add the SEP pressure sensor to my next manual lever if it is designed well for consistent profiling ability. I like the idea of a simpler espresso machine that still has the tech when I want to use it.