Delay for Argos lever espresso machine - Page 3

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Jeff
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#21: Post by Jeff »

It definitely is a purchase, not a "donation". Should they fail to deliver, or even that you want to back out, you have both direct options for cancelling the order (see, for example Section 7 of the Terms of Service or Ross on EAF, "Full refunds are offered for those that cancel orders"), as well as a fall-back of whatever consumer protection laws and policies are in place with your credit card.

With a Kickstarter, they fail to deliver, deliver something different, whatever, you have no recourse unless you can prove fraud. "Sorry, ran out of money because we didn't plan well enough for the unforeseen issues." isn't, by itself, fraud. Suing a defunct entity isn't usually very rewarding.

There are plenty of things that are sold without being finalized, where vendors are uncertain or change with time, and the software isn't done. There are notable examples in the espresso world as well as outside of it. Ordering next-year's model of an automobile is another of them.

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another_jim
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#22: Post by another_jim »

Jeff wrote:I just looked at https://www.odysseyespresso.com/shop/ar ... so-machine and didn't even see the PID mentioned.

The boiler has a PID and the group is connected to the boiler with metal plate. Looking at the raft load of similar thermally designed machines, this will get you about a 2C window for shots. Given that it's a lever, the shot tuning will be via flow control, not temperature.

I'm more concerned about the simple bolt used for the lever, and the presumably simple engineering of the spring, so that it can be removed for manual control. That's ingenious but strictly domestic -- this is not a commercial group, and you're looking at frequent replacements of the bolt and probably seals as well.

As usual for levers, flex will also be an issue.

So, whether this turns out to be a Cremina killer, or merely as finicky as a Pavoni, will depend on these small fit and finish details.

But, damn, it is a fine looking design; so I hope they are successful and we get to review it.
Jim Schulman

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TigerStripes
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#23: Post by TigerStripes »

The PID is discussed on the main argos page and is marketed as a selling point for "precise thermal stability". I'm very skeptical of a novel / unproven PID approach from a company that has never built a product before.

https://www.odysseyespresso.com/argos-l ... 20espresso.

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TigerStripes
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#24: Post by TigerStripes »

Jeff wrote:It definitely is a purchase, not a "donation". Should they fail to deliver, or even that you want to back out, you have both direct options for cancelling the order (see, for example Section 7 of the Terms of Service or Ross on EAF, "Full refunds are offered for those that cancel orders"), as well as a fall-back of whatever consumer protection laws and policies are in place with your credit card.
I didn't call it a donation. I called it a pre-order. That's what odyssey espresso calls it.

If they fail to deliver, just like a kickstarter, there will be no money for refunds. Most credit cards have a 90 day dispute period and it's difficult to win a chargeback in any scenario. Consumer protection in the United States is a joke.

I think there are good uses of crowdfunding. I purchased a niche through indiegogo. I just think there's a very real chance that odyssey espresso is over promising here.
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pizzaman383
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#25: Post by pizzaman383 »

Beyond the risks of delay and ability to work as described there is the price uncertainty. The fact that none of the companies offering stable designed single boiler levers (without the sophisticated features Odyssey is adding) consistently can deliver new, high quality machines at a price anywhere near $1000 seems to imply that the company can't make a profit to stay in business. It may mean like many startups that once it becomes clear that is going to happen things stop.
Curtis
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makspyat
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#26: Post by makspyat »

If things go bad, Ross may always seek additional funding from investors. It is a unique product and there is a lot of people with the money.

Legend_217
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#27: Post by Legend_217 »

I think he already have parts to assemble 500 machines and another 500 on order. Only 3 remaining items in checklist are sorting out boiler funnel and app software, CE application and ship. But I'm very certain with his next batch, we will see significant price hikes

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shotwell
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#28: Post by shotwell »

TigerStripes wrote:I do think they've been marketing heavily on their approach with PID to optimize shot temperature at the puck by monitoring both grouphead and boiler temperature. This is exciting, but it's also a new and unproven approach.
This is untrue; the mara x uses a similar loop for controlling brew temp.

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GregoryJ
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#29: Post by GregoryJ »

Legend_217 wrote:I think he already have parts to assemble 500 machines and another 500 on order. Only 3 remaining items in checklist are sorting out boiler funnel and app software, CE application and ship. But I'm very certain with his next batch, we will see significant price hikes
I think the "remaining" items are the ones that haven't been started yet. But everything "in progress" also has to be completed before they are ready to ship.

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TigerStripes
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#30: Post by TigerStripes »

shotwell wrote:This is untrue; the mara x uses a similar loop for controlling brew temp.
The Mara x is a machine that warms up and sits at thermal equilibrium. That is different than a machine that has a cold group and a hot boiler, and attempts to manage the difference between both.

Odyssey espresso is doing something completely new. It's a cool idea and I hope they can pull it off.
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