Dating vintage espresso machines [ANCC, Serial] - Page 2

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OldAndBigTr3E

#11: Post by OldAndBigTr3E »

This is a great idea. :mrgreen: I hope alot of people share their #s with you. (Added better pic of plate)
LMWDP#587. Pull the lever to claim your prize.

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cuppajoe

#12: Post by cuppajoe »

pootoogoo wrote:Great Holger ! Thanks Greg. :wink:


David, I think this number on the group connection is more likely the serial number (#3651), hence dating end 1951-begining 1952, the oldest FAEMA I have referenced so far. So, there was no badge or ANCC number on the boiler ? (ANCC will be more precise)
Thanks for that info Sebastien. Seems to confirm it is a very early Urania. The only other indictors for the machine are on the boiler end plate, not sure what to make of them.


Unfortunately there were no other badges, labels, or numbers anywhere else on the machine.

There are no numbers anywhere on the v.2 Lady Duchessa I picked up. It also has the white badge instead of the black, tho not sure how that transitioned through production cycles.
David - LMWDP 448

My coffee wasn't strong enough to defend itself - Tom Waits

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pootoogoo (original poster)

#13: Post by pootoogoo (original poster) »

cuppajoe wrote:The only other indictors for the machine are on the boiler end plate, not sure what to make of them.
This other number (3657) is very close to the first one (3651). A bit strange because, usually machines were built with the same serial parts number but kind confirms that it is a serial, not a date. Do you have any picture of your machine ? 1952 seem very early for a Urania, but not so surprising for a Marte.
OldAndBigTr3E wrote:(Added better pic of plate)
Thanks Mike, this is more clear now that your machine date is 1956 (not 52, as speculated in your thread), with serial number 1861 or 1961. Your plate is of the same type as the one from Tom's Lollobridgida, it hence read "Year Date" N "Serial" (or ANCC number... this is not clear now) PKG 1.5 (Pressure Kg/cm2).

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zeb

#14: Post by zeb »

These numbers where engraved on the molds I suppose because all the machines with these parts have the same at the same place. Something like a serial number, not a date.

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cuppajoe

#15: Post by cuppajoe »

pootoogoo wrote:This other number (3657) is very close to the first one (3651). A bit strange because, usually machines were built with the same serial parts number but kind confirms that it is a serial, not a date. Do you have any picture of your machine ? 1952 seem very early for a Urania, but not so surprising for a Marte.
Here's photos of the machine as it arrived -




Her's a link to the restore thread - Faema Urania single group, v.1 Project

If the numbers are serial numbers, incorporating them into the casting seems a bit odd. Maybe a part number?
David - LMWDP 448

My coffee wasn't strong enough to defend itself - Tom Waits

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pootoogoo (original poster)

#16: Post by pootoogoo (original poster) »

OK, now I remember seeing your thread. What an impressive restoration ! Stunning. :shock:

There are two signs indicating a later date for your machine.
First, the logo that was deposited in Italy in February 1954.



Then the machine (Urania type), that was first patented in December 1954, then May 1955. With model patented around the same date but with a different group (September 1954).

(This will be part of my next "Elevator to espresso" episode. Stay tuned. :wink: )

Hence your machine is later than 1954 (and the numbers on your parts is not exactly a FAEMA serial, certainly a part number).
The date on your manometer shows 9-56 (September 1956), that one is the other bracket date.


OldNuc

#17: Post by OldNuc »

This is from a Gaggia L59 single group.


Matr. is the only number on the tag

The manometer is also dated 5-62

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cuppajoe

#18: Post by cuppajoe »

Thanks for the kind words Sebastien -

Not trying to be difficult, but starting to get confused as to just what this thing is. Your help is much appreciated. The missing manufacturing badges don't make things easier.

In regards to the logos, they look printed and not from a front badge and the graphics are materially different.There is a Urania on Dr. Maltoni's site dated 1952, so not sure how that squares with a patent for '54. It also has a V group, so a second generation. He also has a Marte dated 1950. My machine has the Marte group as well as a Marte boiler. Are you referring to a utility patent?

The manometer is something easily damaged and a possible replacement. This machine has been through three other people before it came to me. One thing I did come across is that the black knobs and handles might indicate a French origin. As it came out of a French Alps chalet, seems reasonable.

I've also been thinking about the numbers on the boiler neck and the fact there is nothing stamped on the boiler itself. The neck and valve fittings are sand casted from the looks of them, and the boiler body would be a fabricated tube with the fittings brazed on. My guess is the numbers apart numbers, as they would make a bunch for stock and it would be impractical to change the number for each casting or different boiler. Could be the master form is marked to keep track as to how many molds are made from it. They do a similar thing with injection molding, as the mold wears as it is used.
David - LMWDP 448

My coffee wasn't strong enough to defend itself - Tom Waits

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pootoogoo (original poster)

#19: Post by pootoogoo (original poster) »

OldNuc wrote:This is from a Gaggia L59 single group.
Thanks Rich. This one fits exactly with the "no ANCC" machines. I will update the graphs soon.
Your plate may put down the theory of a foreign production site since it is indeed a Milan address. :?:
cuppajoe wrote:In regards to the logos, they look printed and not from a front badge and the graphics are materially different.There is a Urania on Dr. Maltoni's site dated 1952, so not sure how that squares with a patent for '54. It also has a V group, so a second generation. He also has a Marte dated 1950. My machine has the Marte group as well as a Marte boiler. Are you referring to a utility patent?
David, since your machine as no clear numbering apart from what appear to be part numbers, we have to rely on other sources to get a date bracket. Trying to get cross references is the best way to go. I would not take for granted the dates appearing on Maltoni's website. For example, there is also a Velox model dated 1952 but other clues rather point to 1960 (see my episode 29, it is about Gaggia but the FAEMA story goes in parallel).
For the Urania model, there exist a patent for model and a patent for invention (for the model own by Vincent aka Rotchitos). I will talk about is in my next episode.

OldNuc

#20: Post by OldNuc »

Yes, the L59 is definitely from a private home located in Italy. I will attempt to obtain a more detailed provenance. Judging from the physical condition it was never used that hard.