Cafelat Robot User Experience - Page 445

A haven dedicated to manual espresso machine aficionados.
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bringyoutomyhell
Posts: 179
Joined: 8 years ago

#4441: Post by bringyoutomyhell »

Go for a 1:2 at 7 bar in 30 seconds + preinfusion for starters. Every bean will require a different grind size. And you'll need to go finer as they age. They'll taste better between 10 to 20 days post roast. I freeze my beans single or double dosed (vacuum sealed, or in cheap glass IKEA tubes) so I can have them perfect whenever I want. Preinfusion matter less the darker the beans. For third wave beans preinfusion is crucial to avoid bitterness. Use a paper filter under the shower screen, it reduces channeling. My basic recipe is 15 grams, fill 5mm from the top of the basket, 10 seconds preinfusion keeping it at 2 bar, then gentle ramp up to 6/7 bars, then keep it there until 15ml out, then start slowly ramping down to reach 3/4 bars at 45 seconds and 30ml

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Jeff
Team HB
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#4442: Post by Jeff »

These are some personal opinions, so take them as such and not as some hard-and-fast rules.

For medium or medium-dark ("espresso blends"), I seemed to find between a week and three weeks from roast to provide better results than coffee that was only a day or two from roast, or over three weeks old. This assumes that the bag is heat sealed from the roaster, not just a roll-top with a wire tie. I usually tried to finish a bag within a week of opening it. Keeping it in a sealed container, on the counter, out of the sun and the heat is probably fine for most people and their coffees.

Learning sour, bitter, and astringent is tricky. It's especially so as you often get two or all three at the same time.

I think that learning how your grinder, coffee, and espresso maker work together is valuable, even if it means "wasting" a few shots. I find that keeping a notebook of the shots I pulled helps me see patterns easier. Even a brief description of flavor, without all those fancy fruits or chocolate/nut variations is useful. "Yuck, ash tray" tells me what I need to know when I'm scanning backward and see that last time it tasted like this, it was 3 clicks looser (for example) and I got to "OK, still a bit bitter".

One thing is to let the espresso cool a bit. Maybe even a lot. When it is hot, all you can taste is hot. Some people say that espresso gets bitter as it cools. My belief is that theirs was bitter all along, they just couldn't taste it when it was so hot.

You might try intentionally adjusting both up and down two or even four clicks from where you like the taste†. That way you get a feeling for how much and what kind of change those make. You may be able to feel the difference when you pull the shot, not just in the taste in the cup. You don't have to drink them all down, but let them cool some and taste before you dump them in the sink. Even if they're tasty, you may not want to try more than a sip or two so you don't get too jittery.

As for Sprometheous, that video left many of us wondering. As I recall, he only had the Robot for a short period of time, had problems using it, which his friends said was "puck lift". I don't think anyone here figured out what puck lift was, or how it could possibly happen with any sensible use of the Robot. True, if you're "shaking hands" with your Robot and the arms are waving like Robbie, "Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!" you're likely to displace the puck, but ...


† I don't have my JX-Pro with me, but I vaguely remember 4 clicks to the number. The goal is to make a change that is enough to push you away from the sweet spot a bit, without getting into a complete gusher or something that takes two minutes to press through.

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Ken5
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#4443: Post by Ken5 »

I remember that puck lift comment in his review and that has not been my experience at all, actually only time I have heard it. Don't think I ever recall anyone here complaining of it, most people here preinfuse, and your videos of your shots don't show you are experiencing it either, actually just the opposite.

Not sure why his shots looked like that, don't think I ever has such watery shots.

nameisjoey
Posts: 495
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#4444: Post by nameisjoey replying to Ken5 »

Yeah, I haven't ever experienced that either and have always been quite confused by his experience as I haven't heard it anywhere else.

Jonk
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Joined: 4 years ago

#4445: Post by Jonk »

It seemed Sprometheus just didn't understand how pre-infusion works and was given a bogus theory in an effort to explain what he was experiencing. There is some merit to coarsening up the grind as a way to increase extraction, as explained in this article: https://www.cell.com/matter/fulltext/S2 ... 19)30410-2 (or just look up turbo shots)

Kinukcafe
Posts: 77
Joined: 2 years ago

#4446: Post by Kinukcafe »

Thanks for the sharing. I am unsure whether it will help but I tried the approach in the YouTube anyway. Might be a bit different but below are what we can manage:

1/ Strong pull (guessing 9bar as I don't have the gauge) until the first few drop
2/ stopped a few 5sec
2/ moderate pull (feeling 6 bar) until the end

I am pretty happy with the result. I still have a bit of channeling at the initial flow and during the middle phase, although most of holes have coffee comes out but one side has bigger flow and approaching the end of the pull, I can see a nice flow from 80% of the holes joining into one stream. I am very happy about it as channeling is the first issue I want to tackle. I will try a coarser grind later today.

Lesson learnt: I thought I was experiencing channeling and the coffee is too watery. So, I was trying to go finer for the grind as I learnt finer grind gives thicker coffee. But this time I got better results with coarser setting! I think the watery was due to channeling (for unknown reason). The output coffee comes out from the wider channeling and this under-extracted. I am really unsure but my guess may be pushed the screen closer to the coffee does help. Other than that, I guess a coarser setting also help channeling(???). I am not sure this make sense though.

Regard the espresso, it is thicker and with noticeable crema! Finally! And the taste is much less aggressive and more balanced. Not too bitter and not too sour. I still need more training to achieve the sweetness and other chocolate and nutty hint etc. I also want it to be a bit less bitter in my next shop.




I am unsure whether the improvement in channeling is due to the pressure pattern though. Because I did make other changes at the same time (should only make one change a time but I was so eager to achieve result):

Changes made:
1/ new beans (Fruit and Nut Espresso, dark roast, brew on Jun 30)
2/ coarser grinder by 4 clicks (read 2.00 now)
3/ press a bit harder on the screen to the coffee
4/ 18g coffee (last time was 14g)
5/ water 5mm to full (previously 8mm)

Unchanged:
- ratio 1:2.0
- without paper filter (I tried using it under the screen with supermarket beans but still with significant channeling)

Am I heading to the right direction to try coarser next shot?

nameisjoey
Posts: 495
Joined: 4 years ago

#4447: Post by nameisjoey »

Kinukcafe wrote:
Changes made:
1/ new beans (Fruit and Nut Espresso, dark roast, brew on Jun 30)
My guess is this was the reason you had such a drastic improvement. The supermarket beans you were using were stale. That's why you had to grind so fine, why your espresso was so watery, and you had constant issues of channeling.

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Kinukcafe
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#4448: Post by Kinukcafe replying to nameisjoey »

Sorry for confusing you. I was using good beans before and had channeling. I ran out of bean yesterday and grabbed a bag in supermarket before my new pack arrive today. The last pack was 14 days old when I used it. But it was named and medium dark for filter coffee. So I am guess the new one "espresso dark roast" is easier to work with(?)

Yeah. I am so happy to get here. And this now become my base receipt so I can start trial and errors on more parameters.

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bringyoutomyhell
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#4449: Post by bringyoutomyhell »

There's a limit to how much finer you can go. It's called volcano effect. The extraction yield increases as you go finer, but to a point, past that point water can't enter in all coffee grounds and you get channeling, uneven extraction and sourness (often also bitterness) in the cup

Also yeah, ignore 99% of the YouTubers, especially the famous ones. Terrible advice in general. Hoffman is safe-ish, Lance Hedrick too, some other super minor you can also find in espresso discords and forum. But the influencer kind.. avoid at all costs

Kinukcafe
Posts: 77
Joined: 2 years ago

#4450: Post by Kinukcafe replying to bringyoutomyhell »

This explains the finness leading to channeling all clearly! Thanks.

I tried another shot. It seems I have resolved majority of the channeling issue.
Two changes made:
1/ go even coarser for 4 clicks in JX-pro counter-clockwise
2/ change from 1 toothpick to 2 needles (try to mimic a WDT) for distribution and crumb breaking. Also, instead of just finding and breaking visible crumbs, I stir 20 times.
3/ I add back infusion this time as per the advices i got it here. So, this time, 15s preinfusion + 20s pull time.

I am so happy to see all the golden colour coffee comes out smoothly and evenly. Still unsure whether it was the change in 1/ or 2/ contribution to the improvement.

Taste wise, I was less tasty than the last shot. Again, quite contradictory to what I read: coarser grind adds sourness and finner grind brings bitterness(?) still far from the desire result in taste but I am happy that the channeling was largely improved.

Plan to go even coarser to clear my doubt. Any thoughts will be welcomed.

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