The benefits of a PID on a dipper lever

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mathof
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#1: Post by mathof »

Mod Note: This topic split off from Londinium R arrived
redbone wrote:Curious what others feel about the omission of a P.I.D. controller. Not for thermal stability as has been previously argued but instead for profiling of different coffees and roast levels.
How would that work? If I want to change the average brew water temperature on the fly, I pull the shot at a higher or lower initial group temperature. I monitor that with a t/c and adjust it (downwards) with a room-temp portafilter.

Matt

mfortin
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#2: Post by mfortin »

mathof wrote:How would that work? If I want to change the average brew water temperature on the fly, I pull the shot at a higher or lower initial group temperature. I monitor that with a t/c and adjust it (downwards) with a room-temp portafilter.

Matt
The same way as a Profitec pro 800 does...

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redbone
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#3: Post by redbone »

mathof wrote:How would that work? If I want to change the average brew water temperature on the fly, I pull the shot at a higher or lower initial group temperature. I monitor that with a t/c and adjust it (downwards) with a room-temp portafilter.

Matt
The Profitec 800 is a P.I.D. controlled single boiler lever machine as well as the upcoming dual boiler Vostok single San Marco lever group which will also have controlled pre-infusion pressure (pat.pending). Made by Elcor's M & V S.R.L. UNIP a.k.a. Advanced Coffee Systems the makers of Ambient Vesuvius.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/56768742@ ... 9559880134

Edit : An argument can be made that changing the pre-infusion pressure changes the pre-infusion temperature.
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Almico
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#4: Post by Almico »

redbone wrote:The Profitec 800 is a P.I.D. controlled lever machine as well as the upcoming dual boiler Vostok single San Marco lever group which will also have controlled pre-infusion pressure (pat.pending). Made by Elcor's M & V S.R.L. UNIP a.k.a. Advanced Coffee Systems the makers of Ambient Vesuvius.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/56768742@ ... 9559880134
I like the idea of a PID, but really don't see the value in jumping through hoops with pre-infusion for a lever machine. You have complete control over the pressure profile with the lever, even doing a mini Fellini move to refill the group after a full preinfusion.

Not my video, but you get the idea on this Profitec 800...

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redbone
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#5: Post by redbone »

As the owner of currently 5 lever machines, I agree with regards to the ease of inherent pre-infusion control with a lever machine.
The only reasoning I could come up with is the ability to consistently repeat the same time and pressure and have a visual by which to gauge by.
This could be useful for those attempting to use profiling to optimise a particular coffee. Not necessary as this could also be done manually but would allow marked transferable shot recipe between users.
Between order and chaos there is espresso.
Semper discens.


Rob
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Almico
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#6: Post by Almico »

redbone wrote:As the owner of currently 5 lever machines, I agree with regards to the ease of inherent pre-infusion control with a lever machine.
The only reasoning I could come up with is the ability to consistently repeat the same time and pressure and have a visual by which to gauge by.
This could be useful for those attempting to use profiling to optimize a particular coffee. Not necessary as this could also be done manually but would allow marked transferable shot recipe between users.
If I could come up with an aesthetically pleasing, convenient and portable water supply system, I'd have the Alex Leva on top of a very short list. With no onboard pump it would be stealthily quiet, and the outboard pump/regulator would make preinfusion highly adjustable. And it's PID controlled.

But alas, I'm vacillating between the vibed Profitec 800 and Londinium L1 (orig) or rotary'd R.

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dominico
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#7: Post by dominico »

Are you saying you'd like to use the PID to control preinfusion pressure? That would work perfectly fine to give you preinfusion adjustment roughly in the .7 - 1.5bar range for machines whose groups draw water from the boiler, ala Profitec Pro 800.

This wouldn't work on setups where the water is being fed directly to the group from line pressure or by a pump however.

Also, in boiler fed machines like the L1 or Pro 800 the boiler pressure affects both steam power and how hot the groups run, so you'll have to make adjustments according to that as well. To get preinfusion pressure up to 1.5bar or more it might start to become a PITA to keep the groups cool enough to not scorch every coffee you put through it, not to mention trying to get the thing up to 3 or 4 bars. Plus, I'm not sure what the max suggested pressure that these boilers can handle would be. What is the factory setting for the safety valve? Can the boiler handle 3 or 4 bars to simulate line pressure?

I think the easiest way to create 3 bar, 4 bar, and slowly rising preinfusion from a boiler fed machine is simply to manipulate the lever, after familiarizing yourself with how your spring behaves using a portafilter presure gauge.
https://bit.ly/3N1bhPR
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Almico
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#8: Post by Almico »

dominico wrote:Are you saying you'd like to use the PID to control preinfusion pressure? That would work perfectly fine to give you preinfusion adjustment roughly in the .7 - 1.5bar range for machines whose groups draw water from the boiler, ala Profitec Pro 800.
Are you asking me? If so: no, I'm saying I would use the regulator off the Flojet to control preinfusion. The PID would control steam and group temperature.

That said, the problem with varying boiler/group temp for different coffees is it will affect your steaming routine.

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vberch
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#9: Post by vberch »

I am with Dominick on this one. If you want your boiler lever, 1.0 - 1.3 bar pressure, preinfuse your machine as designed. If you want to preinfuise at higher pressure, start by preinfising as usual by pulling the lever down to fill the group, but then raise the lever and hold it at its engagement point, about 45* angle, to continue preinfusing at higher, about 3 bars, pressure. It is very easy and repeatable.

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dominico
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#10: Post by dominico »

Almico wrote:Are you asking me?
My reply was in response to redbone's comments about a boiler PID to tune optimize for coffees, and how that will or won't work for various machines.

One thing about your reply though, you won't be able to control the preinfusion with a Flojet on a Profitec Pro 800 or an Alex Leva. They are both dippers which feed from a pressurized boiler. The Londinium R architecture is different: a pump forces water through an HX and into the group. This is why the LR preinfusion is controllable with a pump, the other two can only preinfuse at their boiler pressures unless you do some lever manipulations.
https://bit.ly/3N1bhPR
Il caffè è un piacere, se non è buono che piacere è?

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