Two Video Reviews Reveal Why New Grinder Reviews Generally Can't Be Trusted - Page 17

Want to talk espresso but not sure which forum? If so, this is the right one.

#161: Post by malling »

Primacog wrote:It seems you may have some sort of philosophical objection to the use of metaphor itself. If so i have to say that not only I disagree with your approach, but to deny the ability to make cross references to other fields would turn each body of knowledge into its own silo... given that metaphor and analogy are used by the human race across cultures and languages and time periods almost universally, its usefulness is beyond question.
No I have nothing against metaphors, I have something against technological analogy as it's generally a poor argument and examples, as trying to explain something by something completely unrelated to make a point is just tend to remove all sorts of nuances and tend to dumb things down. On top it's way to often been used to derail, to end and to stop constructive debate and even insinuate something about receiver.
I am not sure why you reacted so with so much force to my seemingly innocuous point. I was merely pointing out that therr seems to be similar ways of thinking in at least 2 different hobbies applied to different alleged phenomena. Just as u defend the phenomenon of burrs needing to be seasoned, the phenomena of guitars needing to be played in (and of closing up if they are not played) and the need to warm up amps are also defended passionately in the other hobbies by their many adherents. This indicates to me a likely similar way of thinking being applied to different things. That was my point.
Your analogy could be seen as rude, because it insinuating that's it is psychological phenomena, before asking what the recipients have done to prove or test the thesis, or whether they have read up on it. It's really not usually the right approach for a constructive debate.

Your point ended up as being rather persistently insisting on the correctness of your own stance, that the effect of seasoning mainly is a psychological phenomena, and to prove and explain that theory you use an analogy that first off was completely unnecessary, as the point was already and easily understood.

The analogy itself makes the point. Without drawing reference to those phenomena in those other areas, I literally cannot make this point any other way. And why should I even try to do that as there is nothing wrong with the way that I did it in anyway....

Just because it might be a phenomenon in other areas dos not necessarily make it relevant here, dos it. Perhaps you should ask about where people gotten those theories from before bursting out with theories that easily could be perceived as being impolite. If such hasn't been tested yes then it could be something that could be brought forward, but generally it's a better approach to ask for specific proof etc. before tossing theories on the table about it being psychological phenomena. Even though that might be your stance or even might be true.
On having the "language" to understand the references, as Capuchin Monk has pointed out, most people have an idea of hifi. Fewer people here may be interested in guitars but that is in itself an opportunity to learn something about a different field rather than being something objectionable. Also my point requires the reference to those other fields and so it cannot be explained in any other way
When using analogy in useful way you use one that's within the understanding of the recipient, using analogy that requires a set of knowledge, language or understanding that cannot be expected to be had on the receiving end means that there can no longer be a debate, the receiver won't be able to counter the argument or the analogy. That's the point in any debate not to prove the correctness of your own stance but to share opinions. This is generally an issue with technical analogies.
Also I certainly was not using my point to denigrate anyone nor make a personal attack - so I would like to know what is the relevance of you citing that possibility in he context of my point. I was also not derailing mor undermining any discussion or person.

I have no idea what u mean by suggesting my point was not "forthcoming" or not "constructive". It certainly was of great interest to me and hopefully to some other people here. Certainly it was not destructive and it was not mendacious and I hope u r not suggesting it was! As i have said slready my point cannot be made without drawing reference to those othe phenomena so it is not "plain out clear" without such reference.
I explained why above, generally be careful with psychological explanations it generally does not go down well, especially in certain cultures without making sure there cannot be other explanations first, sometimes it might be better to not even make that point in the first place and just keep it for yourself.

It might be what you believe it is, but you need to be incredibly cautious about putting theoretical that revolve about psychological, culture or social phenomena on the table, this is probably not the best place for it.

Being constructive is having a debate about said subject not derailing it into a debate about the human mind. I never seen anything positive come out of even mentioning this on this forum not once.


#162: Post by Primacog »

1. Analogy is a universally applicable approach. To group hifi, guitars and coffee grinders under an amorphous categorisation caled "technology" just so that you can disqualify them seems to me to be a conclusion looking for a justification. In any event there is nothing in the field of technical solutions to real life issues that should render analogy inapplicable to it that I am aware of.

2. There is nothing personal in what I am positing and I am not insinuating any "psychological" issues in the minds of those who believe that grinders should be seasoned. All that I am suggesting is that the same fallacies may be in operation in all three phenomena - which is a fancy way of suggesting that all three scenarios may be an erroneous conclusion made in the same fallacious way. In other words, I am suggesting those who believe guitars need to be played in, amps need to be warmed up and grinders need to be seasoned may be making the same systemic mistake. That is why I am flummoxed why you seem to be personally offended by what I am suggesting to the level as if I am somehow suggesting u have become insane or something- which is most decidedly not what I am suggesting. I would have thought the work of psychologists and sociologists and economists have rather conclusively shown that we humans make fallacious decisions on a day to day basis. Therefore I do not se how suggesting u may be mistaken in this belief is somehow committing a mortal offence to another - unless u have a problem with people who disagree with you...

3. I believe the posts above will show that I haven't repeated my suggestion except in replying to either your posts that replied to me or responding to Capuchin Monk who also posted on similar matters. Therefore I do not understand why u suggest that I have been "persistently insisting on the correctness of my stance" - unless in your view, only u have the right to respond at length on a topic and those who disagree with u don't have the right to do the same?

4. If all the time I have seen and posted on such things in forums for hifi, guitar and now coffee, u r the one and only person who has ever taken offence on such suggestions.

5. I am fully aware why people in the guitars and hifi worlds believe why they do about guitars playing in and amps needing to be warm to sound optimal. I am also aware of the rationale why people who season their grinders do so. The whole point of my suggestion is to take note and mention interesting parallels in other fields which may or may not inform people.on this forum to take a different look at the issue of seasoning grinders. Whether my point is convincing to u or not is up to u. But for u to tell me I am not allowed on pain of offending u to even question the dogma of seasoning grinders by raising my analogy is for u to somehow elevate the former to the level of dogma - which isn't really healthy at all for a subjective issue like coffee grinders....
LMWDP #729


#163: Post by Cuprajake »



#164: Post by Primacog »

My exchange of posts with malling above is quite far away from what i consider to be "fun", I assure you...nonetheless I have no intention to go on a tangent from this thread so I'm out of this discussion here on out
LMWDP #729