pcrussell50 wrote:So I ran my three-lobe clover distribution tool down to 1.0cm (10mm) and right away, big improvement. Previously, I had been endeavoring to distrotamp (made up word), as shallow as possible to still maintain suitable headspace. That was where I was having little luck. So, liking the direction this is taking so far. Eager to join in the the success of the rest of you. Just for grins, I ordered a Chinese wedge style tool, the one Assaf uses. I don't expect drastic differences vs. the clover, but it was cheap enough that it was better justification to get it than not, IMO.

-Peter

Good News Peter! BTW I'd like to try a wedge too. Would you share a link? I searched yesterday but hadn't found one.

Sure. Here you go: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/New-Arr ... 0.0.bSHzDR

Not sure why the are not found on the 'zon or the 'bay.

-Peter

Cool! Thanks Peter!

pcrussell50 wrote:So I ran my three-lobe clover distribution tool down to 1.0cm (10mm) and right away, big improvement. Previously, I had been endeavoring to distrotamp (made up word), as shallow as possible to still maintain suitable headspace. That was where I was having little luck. So, liking the direction this is taking so far. Eager to join in the the success of the rest of you. Just for grins, I ordered a Chinese wedge style tool, the one Assaf uses. I don't expect drastic differences vs. the clover, but it was cheap enough that it was better justification to get it than not, IMO.

-Peter

That's great news! Glad you are starting to have success. I have not gone lower than 10mm, seems this depth works well and is just below the "razor" ...so the headspace is right on. Did you increase the pre-infusion time too?

As for the grooming tool shape, I use a wedge type...seems to come out cleaner after use than the clover type. At least for me.

BaristaBob wrote," It's my firm belief that tamping pressure and grind size/distribution are auto correlated in an inverse way. That is to say, what we want to achieve is uniform water flow thru the coffee puck. You absolutely can't do this without having a level puck (e.g., Levatamp, distribution tool, expert hand/eye coordination, etc), then comes removing the air voids. You can do this via compaction and/or finer grinding. So I suspect one could achieve the same "perfect" extraction by tamping the puck to 20 or 30 lbs or grinding finer and using a grooming tool to slightly compact but more to level the puck.
But my bet in on the grinder.

I totally agree with Bob. I'm brand new to espresso, at 71 I purchased my shiny beauty, Pavoni Professional millennium. I also bought a Sette 270W for grinding. While waiting for my Reg Barber to show up I had to use the plastic whatever. I won't go into the hard the soft, the polish etc. The things I had going for me, good water, fresh roasted coffee delivered day after roast and using the same blend until I can figure out how to do it. Newbie in the forest looking for bread crumbs. The most frustrating issue for me with all this new stuff, tamping. The more I read and the harder I tried even after RB showed up. Frustrated for about 300grams. I use a bottomless and the double with 15g once I got zeroed into grind for me that was 2/C, a tad bitter, but I was making caps to get froth practice. What I was doing and I haven't read in this thread. Bump out and carefully inspect each and every puck, is the top surface nice? Is the puck level? Is the bottom surface imprinted evenly with the basket imprint? My pucks were not always level. I stopped polishing, the odd puck was still uneven. I started to think solely about level, gently sitting the tamp on top of the levelled bed and again using light pressure to evenly tamp down so top edge of tamp even with basket lip. The first time I did this I thought it would be too light a tamp. It wasn't, and I was getting the best pucks ever. Now the bitter problem easy. BH's coffee chart. Extract less. 2/C goes to 2/G (coarser) yield goes down, bitterness gone. I'll go to 2/F for tomorrow's I just want a tad of bitterness.
I've only had the Pavoni a month and a half I hope l could help someone even with my limited experience.

A few comments:

What you are really looking for is uniform density in the puck.

1. RB are well sized tampers. Which means that for most baskets, The top edge of the tamper itself (the base) would be relatively flush with the edge of the basket. That should make it easy to see if the tamp is flush or not. You use the top edge to "eye" levelness.
2. I like to think of tamping as a verification of proper distribution. And not as a "leveling agent". What this means that is the distribution is good, and the non-compacted puck is uniform, when you tamp it will come out level (and the tamper base reasonably flush with the basket). If it isn't level - you cannot(!) fix it by pressing at an angle because the amount of coffee on each side of the basket is uneven. As an example, pressing down hard on the "left" isn't going to shift the extra coffee to the "right"; it will just result in an uneven density.

AssafL wrote:A few comments:

What you are really looking for is uniform density in the puck. ...

This is the terminal objective of the entire basket prep exercise and is the critical step. If the density is not consistent between any 2 points in the coffee puck then that is a FAIL. How this is achieved depends on a long list of variables most of which are local in nature and include the local external environment. Makes it difficult to compare all of the various prep techniques and attempt to pull out The Best Technique.

As a newbie I'm glad that with internet and blogs like HB it significantly shortens the learning curve knowledge wise. Being able to quickly move through troubleshooting by reading the many articles and adapting best methods for your situation. The improved knowledge base makes manually operating the Pavoni seem a lot smoother. So it ends up being so much more fun.

There does seem to be a bit of a "religious holy war" going on between those who are on the side of:
1) Why RDT/WDT if I don't need to?
versus
2) Why NOT RDT/WDT, whether you need to or not?

I'm on side 2

It reminds me of the "religious holy war" that went on a few years ago between those who were on the side of:
1) Why weigh your dose and extraction, if you just dose the right way, and cut at blonding?
versus
2) Why NOT weigh your dose and extraction, even if you think you are doing it the right way?

I was on side 2 then, too. And took quite a bit of heat along with a few others that are still here.

-Peter