Seller shipping damage woes - advice needed

Want to talk espresso but not sure which forum? If so, this is the right one.
rwang

#1: Post by rwang »

Hi all,

I recently sold a used rocket appartamento and made the mistake of shipping it... I followed the homebarista guideline for packaging with double boxing, draining boiler, etc. However on arrival, the buyer noted the bottom frame got bent pretty bad (which seems to be a common things for rocket machines). By the time he told me, he unfortunately had thrown out all packaging and was already outside of the window to file a shipping claim.

I tried to troubleshoot ways to DIY fix it but he is resistant to trying anything and when I offered to give a partial refund, he said he would think on it but after several weeks said he wants to ship it back to me. I'm quite worried because I have no idea what condition the machine would be shipped back and though its already been 2 months since he bought the machine from me, he used paypal G&S which apparently has a 180 day window for the buyer to file a dispute to get a refund.

Not sure what my options are so figured I would check if anyone had suggestions.

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CarefreeBuzzBuzz

#2: Post by CarefreeBuzzBuzz »

I suppose you participate in the contested shipping. He has responsibility too to notify you timely and keep evidence of the shipping damage. For all you know it was dropped after removing it. If he can't prove anything then I don't think they will agree to just refund him. That's just my thought and I have never gone through the process.
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BaristaBoy E61

#3: Post by BaristaBoy E61 »

rwang wrote: By the time he told me, he unfortunately had thrown out all packaging and was already outside of the window to file a shipping claim.
The buyer has an obligation and a responsibility to notify you and the shipper within a day or two of receipt of the item, photograph, and document everything and preserve all packaging material.

Since he did not do any of these things, I would tell him that I will refuse the shipment if it were to be returned. He has not accepted any responsibility, I don't feel that you are obligated to compensate him.

This is only my opinion and not any legal advice.
"You didn't buy an Espresso Machine - You bought a Chemistry Set!"

CoolHandLukey

#4: Post by CoolHandLukey »

rwang wrote: "... By the time he told me, he unfortunately had thrown out all packaging and was already outside of the window to file a shipping claim...."
Unfortunately, unreasonable actions often lead to this type of frustrating situation. Unless you volunteer to participate in they buyer's self-created mess, the buyer will simply need to deal with his poor decision-making.
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rwang (original poster)

#5: Post by rwang (original poster) »

Thank you all for the comments so far.

I'm not sure if anyone has experience with PayPal's goods and service policy but from what I've read the buyer is allowed to file a dispute within 180 days of their payment (which is pretty ridiculous imo) and basically the seller is obligated refund and their only recourse is that they can request for the item to be sent back which isn't helpful as he could very well package it very poorly...

BodieZoffa

#6: Post by BodieZoffa »

I'd have to see photographic proof of the unboxing/damage and mentioned in a timely manner. These days anytime I buy anything with real world value I take pics of the box as delivered as well as the contents upon me opening it. Even been in the habit of saving boxes/packing material for months to a few years until I'm sure I won't need it.

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HB
Admin

#7: Post by HB »

This question might be better asked on PayPal's community site. A quick search found quite a few matches, e.g., Refund for an item damaged during shipping (I am the seller).

Based on my quick skim of replies, posters noted that shipping damage claims are made by the shipper (you), not the receiver (buyer). If that's accurate, the buyer tossing all the packaging materials and waiting weeks translates into little hope of UPS/FedEx accepting a damage claim. One would hope that the buyer incurs some responsibility for facilitating a damage claim, but that gets into the finer details of PayPal's buyer and seller protection rules that I know next to nothing about.

Good luck with settling this equitably; please let us know how it ends, if only as a cautionary tale for other sellers.

PS: Out of curiosity, I skimmed the UPS terms of service agreement. Section 54.1 "Making Claims for Loss or Damage of Property" goes over the gory details. You have 60 days to make a claim and they list the expected documentation and supporting evidence such as original packing materials.
Dan Kehn

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BaristaBoy E61

#8: Post by BaristaBoy E61 »

For what it's worth and probably not much, whenever I sign for receipt of goods of any value, I always add to my signature, "Subject to inspection". As we cannot know the condition of what we are receiving until opened and inspected.
"You didn't buy an Espresso Machine - You bought a Chemistry Set!"

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cafeIKE
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#9: Post by cafeIKE »

Did you take photos pre ship?
I always do for all items.

It's fairly straight forward to straighten an espresso machine frame... but not for an apartment dweller?
Perhaps the purchaser can hunt about for someone/where that could handle it and you could pay for it.

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HB
Admin

#10: Post by HB »

rwang wrote:However on arrival, the buyer noted the bottom frame got bent pretty bad (which seems to be a common things for rocket machines).
Forgot to mention: I've seen this kind of damage when the espresso machine was shipped with the feet installed without support under the base. It's wise to remove the espresso machine's feet so the base is flat and then place it on a thick layer of hard sheet foam. Without this kind of base support, the front/back feet act as two ends of a "bridge" and dropping the package is effectively pushing on the center of the bridge expanse. This is especially problematic for espresso machines whose base is composed of two parts bolted together - the main section and the driptray section.

For the really heavy and pricey espresso machines, I've seen them shipped in a wood crate without the feet; bolts were inserted from the outside (though the crate bottom) into the inserts for the feet. Needless to say, there was no chance the espresso machine could shift within the crate as it's literally bolted down by the frame.
Dan Kehn