The_Mighty_Bean wrote: will back off my earlier statement slightly. If you have an overly bright espresso, sugar might be more helpful.

However, I have tried to sweeten up plenty of bitter shots with sugar and it just doesn't seem to blend well. Abe, if you're still following this thread, can you relate to what I'm talking about?

A little bit of sugar will not cure bad coffee. However it will transform good coffee that is somewhat unbalanced. It will augment overly acidic coffees and reveal their beauty. Think about those great coffees that work so well as a brewed cup but are too unbalanced or intense as an espresso. Again, even there, it will not always work, you do not want to drown the cup with sugar. We are talking about 1/4-1/2 a teaspoon at the most. It also works well with coffees which are slightly bitter. We have more bitter sensitive taste buds on our tongue than any other type of taste buds. An overly bitter cup will mask all other flavors, it is an evolutionary protective mechanism (most poisons are bitter). Sugar in that case mutes that reaction and allows us to taste more of what the cup has to offer. However, sugar can never cover real defects in coffee such as harshness and ashiness. Stale coffee will not be cured by it either.

The_Mighty_Bean wrote: Maybe using a simple syrup would work better. I am no fan of blind adherence to orthodoxy. I guess it's really up to the barista/roaster to decide that a certain blend is best served enhanced with a small amount of carefully chosen sweetener, be it turbinado sugar, honey, or simple syrup, etc..

Indeed so. I use Sugar Shots which is simple syrup (Liquid Cane Sugar) and the measurements I gave are for that liquid.

The_Mighty_Bean wrote:
That is an artisan's judgment call as to ideal flavor profile. Nothing wrong with that.

And that was my point as well. If you like it with sugar, add it. What is important is not to be deterred by other people's preferences. I remember a time when pairing red wine and fish was an absolute no no, and a hallmark of a wine philistine. This is no longer the case, today each wine is judged for itself, and it is for the most part a taste buds preference.

The_Mighty_Bean wrote:
P.S. I nominate this for HB quote of the year.

Abe Carmeli wrote:
Yes I know, there are great sweet espressos out there; but I can count those on one hand and still have two free fingers to flip the bird.

Thanks for reviving that vintage nugget. I add my vote here as well

We are talking about 1/4-1/2 a teaspoon at the most.

one interesting test to run is to add sugar to a coffee to just below your sweetness threshold. in other words, just a pinch of sugar, not enough to make the drink "sweet".


also, fwiw, heather says her WBC blend was criticized in japan for being "too sweet".

another_jim wrote:
I agree with you on that; I think of it like adding suger to a dry wine.

Personal choices aside, 'never' is a very limiting word. There are quite a few 'nevers' in the HB world, and it sometimes amazes me, and it seems to be base on little else other than pant-size at times.
Never drink decaf? Sure, the decaffeinating process takes some of the flavor, but given the choices of being over-caffeinated (and is there a worse feeling?), drinking nothing at all, or having a slightly less than stellar (but still good) espresso without the caffeine, I'm going with 'C'.
Never use a clicky-tamp? Sure, pay out the nose for a double boiler or a PID or both to get the temp stable and repeatable, or water dance your way to stability, set aside another house payment to get a lever tamp, but anything that insinuates 'training wheels' in the endeavor to achieve consistency is like the moped. Sure it gets you to the store and back, as long as your friends don't see you using it. Really!? Every morning with my Espro, and no shame.
Never add sugar to your coffee? Welcome to Dullsville. Try some of your least favorite blends again with a tiny quarter to half teaspoon of sugar. I know you're afraid, but hey, what if you like it?
I won't tell...

Abe, again, a stroke of genius.

I remember a time when pairing red wine and fish was an absolute no no, and a hallmark of a wine philistine.

I still order my reds with a cube of ice floating in it. My buds used to call me a philistine as well, but most restaurants are no longer 'room temperature' anymore. When we were dining high in northern Cali wine country, our somalier patiently explained to the rest of the table that its quite normal to prefer a red somewhat cooler than what most are served at, and to that purpose he keeps some slightly chilled.
We were best friends for the rest of the night! ; >

Abe Carmeli wrote:The obsession with sweet espresso - a dogma in the making

Is the sweet espresso obsession a dogma, or are we back at the overdosed, 21gram, triple basket type quest again?

- Matt

The_Mighty_Bean wrote:I find that sugar does not do a good job of sweetening espresso, even when pulled a la Cubano. It adds a sort of sweetness that, to my palate, does not integrate with the rest of the flavors. If the espresso was offputtingly bitter to begin with, then it will still have an offputtingly bitter finish, as soon as the sugar has passed off the front of the tongue. Only substances like milk or chicory are actually good at mellowing objectionable bitterness, as opposed to temporarily masking it.

So I think sugar in the cup is a very rough camouflage. It is okay when you just want to throw down your morning caffe while standing at the bar in Italy, before heading off to work. But that's like the morning cuppa joe is to your average American. It's fast, strong, and sweetened. The best part of wakin' up is Folger's in your cup!
...
~tMb

I think it is important to note what kind of sugar we are talking about. Is it processed white sugar? Brown Sugar? Demerara?

The reason I mention this, is that over the years, my tastes in sweetener has changed drastically. It all started at Christmas time in Jamaica...I had a Plum Pudding which was just "to die for"! it was a sweet, slightly smokey flavour with a hint of dusk. I found out they used fresh unprocessed cane sugar in it. Since then, I slowly switched to demerara sugar for my coffee. It is the closest I have found to that flavour. Occasionally, I run out, and the white just tastes so...artificial. I have a friend from Jamaica, and he uses demerara for almost all his cooking sweetness.

If you haven't tried demerara as a sweetener, do at least try it!

Don't use it in your lemonade though.

psycho_supreme wrote:Is the sweet espresso obsession a dogma, or are we back at the overdosed, 21gram, triple basket type quest again?

- Matt

I'm not sure I understand the question, but one may argue that the quest for sweetness often leads to 21 gram triples. The updose trend is as strong as ever among professional baristas for a variety of reasons, sweetness being one of them. My impression is that the 21 gram shot has never caught a strong hold among home baristas, and it is currently in retreat.

Abe Carmeli wrote:A little bit of sugar will not cure bad coffee. However it will transform good coffee that is somewhat unbalanced. It will augment overly acidic coffees and reveal their beauty(...)It also works well with coffees which are slightly bitter(...)An overly bitter cup will mask all other flavors(...).Sugar in that case mutes that reaction and allows us to taste more of what the cup has to offer. However, sugar can never cover real defects in coffee such as harshness and ashiness. Stale coffee will not be cured by it either.

Amen to that. I never found an espresso that wouldn't benefit from a touch of sugar. I find that 1/4-1/2 a teaspoon of sugar will enhance good espresso, just like a touch of salt will enhance the taste of most good food.
As for adding sugar to dry wine I don't think it's comparable...but don't forget that dry wine actually has already a (small) percentage of sugar in it...

Abe Carmeli wrote:I'm not sure I understand the question, but one may argue that the quest for sweetness often leads to 21 gram tripples. The updose trend is as strong as ever among professional baristas for a variety of reasons, sweetness being one of them. My impression is that the 21 gram shot has never caught a strong hold among home baristas, and it is currently in retreat.

The triple basket overdosed quest is in fact over, and that was the idea with that statement.

What I'm trying to get at is will this new topic in fact become the next "fad" type thing.

psycho_supreme wrote:The triple basket overdosed quest is in fact over, and that was the idea with that statement.
What I'm trying to get at is will this new topic in fact become the next "fad" type thing.

I wouldn't be so sure that everyone will agree that the habit of pulling a 20+ triple is over, as abe carmeli writes. it seems this is primarily a question of blending and roasting style.

what considers your reference to 'fad' type thing. do you honestly think jim schulman, peter lynagh and peter giuliani are the kind of guys who are into fads?