OK31 wrote:Ok en bdb baskets it is. Will just probably invest in another one. What do you find the ideal cross bean dose for the stock basket? I'm having a hard time with that. A higher dose causes a drier puck but not sure flavor. Anyway so my takeaway is continue wdt get levtamp and if still not happy invest in a bt wedge or ocd or kafatek distro tool? Sounds about accurate from what I compiled from the responses of everyone?

I think this plan is a good one. This puts you well ahead of where I was with my BDB/SGP combo. But then again, you are doing what I have done, so of course it sounds good to me You're just doing it sooner than I did. The one caveat is that I did not have good luck with WDT until I got the new grinder. The most likely thing is that it was my technique, that I was not patient enough to develop a good technique, etc. But on the occasions I did try WDT with my SGP, stinkage-on-ice was the result. So, if you find that things are not settling in easily, try a shot or two without WDT.

I single-dose, and that might be a factor in the SGP results I got, too. But the value of single dosing for me outweighs whether it affects the value of WDT or not.

Dose for the stock basket does depend on roast level. I use medium and slightly dark roasts which tend to be lower density. I've found 18-20g doses worked for me and when my SGP was well broken in I'd be grinding at size 6 or finer (new model SGP, no shim, default burr setting). But I think I was up around 10 when the SGP was new.

If you use lighter third-wave roasts, those beans can be very dense, so the above doses and likely grind size would need to change. I'm not a fan (yet?) of the lighter roasts. I tried one from Intelligensia (sp?) and it was very pricey for a very small bag, and it took a few attempts to dial in. I might revisit that kind of roast someday, now that I have the monolith. But I like the chocolatey caramely roasts/blends, so not feeling a need. Maybe someday if I get bored or restless.

Wouldn't wdt be better with an SGP why would it make it worse? I mean I get the results speak for themselves but don't understand how that's possible. I'm using malabar and Nossa familia teodoro blend (currently in hopper). Lighter roasts are too fruity acidity "floral" for my taste and I as you do prefer the caramel chocolatey maybe nutty flavors. With the teodoro I'm at 12/13 could probably go up to 14 but that's the fine line maybe would work with a higher dose. The malabar I was at like 6-8 depending on dose

As part of "the compleat[sic] barista tool kit", I keep my Breville and VST baskets around to use, depending on the bean. VST baskets are precisely made, have a lot of hole area and flow very fast. Breville baskets are precisely made, but have a more "traditional" flow rate. As home roaster, I try many different beans and with only a $350 roaster instead of a $3500 roaster, my results vary somewhat even when I'm trying to duplicate. So anyway, depending on the bean, I'll use one or the other of Breville or VST baskets, depending on which tastes better for that bean. Another thing that comes with VST high flow, is a somewhat more finicky nature towards pick prep... They are more likely to have an ugly pour if you have made the slightest mistake in puck prep... Another reason I always RDT and WDT, no matter what.

-Peter

Jake_G wrote:Several folks have commented on needing to adjust the puck grooming tool for bean changes and/or dose/grind setting adjustments. I find this interesting because many of us preach the virtues of the nickel test to determine what the correct dose is for our machines

When switching to a new coffee, do the following:

•Perform a nickel test as above, adjusting dose until a light witness mark is achieved.
•Record this dose/coffee combination
•Groom the puck and forgo tamping

I have a sneaking suspicion that taking this approach, where dose is optimized such that we get a fully compacted puck that is consistently the same thickness, regardless of the bean, our shots will become more consistent for a given brew ratio, with potentially fewer grind changes when changing beans...

Also note that I refrained from using the term "distribution tool". It's a grooming tool. A dissecting needle or a bamboo skewer, or a Londinium tool is a distribution tool. What we're talking about is a grooming tool. After finally caving and trying WDT, I believe both are vitaly important to good puck prep. My grooming tool has a fixed depth of 8mm and needs no tamp to achieve a perfect pour when using WDT. However, a light tamp does compact the puck another 2mm and leaves my shower screen much cleaner than the 8mm tool alone. Based on this, I think a grooming tool set to a 10mm depth would be ideal for my machine.

What do all y'all think?

- Jake

Jake,

Yes indeed you could perform the nickel test as mentioned to determine proper head space but fortunately I might have an easier way. Seems many Breville espresso machines including mine came with a head depth gauge called the "Razor". This hunk of metal has pre-set depth notches on the end that fits into your pf to show you the correct height of your puck to provide the proper head space below the shower screen. You can easily make one of these from a Starbucks gift card...just cut end notches to your optimum depth. My Breville tool is 8mm and this is where I started with grooming only. Poor results lead me to adjust the grooming tool to 10mm...so we seem to have come to the same place on different machines. It also appears that even though I set the grooming tool to compress the puck 10mm it appears to "spring" back some because there is less than a 1mm gap when I reinsert the "Razor" to check height. I find this interesting?!

OK31 wrote:Wouldn't wdt be better with an SGP why would it make it worse? I mean I get the results speak for themselves but don't understand how that's possible. I'm using malabar and Nossa familia teodoro blend (currently in hopper). Lighter roasts are too fruity acidity "floral" for my taste and I as you do prefer the caramel chocolatey maybe nutty flavors. With the teodoro I'm at 12/13 could probably go up to 14 but that's the fine line maybe would work with a higher dose. The malabar I was at like 6-8 depending on dose

I can't explain it. I'm not the only one who has had WDT tend to increase clumping rather than solve it. For the most part, the SGP was seldom clumping the grind, except in very dry conditions here, which is not common. So I might simply have been WDTing where it was not necessary, so moving it away from a good state. I can only say that WDT never worked for me until I got the Monolith. I had tried skewers, mini whisks, paperclip, toothpick. Stirring the grinds always made the pull worse. On the occasions that I did get clumping, I found gently poking them with a skewer was better than stirring the basket. I assume that I have some corner-case situation, as only a few folks report that they have had mixed results with WDT. I would have assumed it was simply my technique, but when I applied the same technique to monolith grinds, it was a big improvement in the pull.

I only mentioned it on the off-chance that you encounter a similar corner case. If you seem to consistently get bad pulls with WDT, try skipping it once or twice. I doubt this will even come up. So many variables, and so few of us seeing this particular type of concern.

I'll check my notes, but I think with Josuma Malabar Gold I was grinding about 5-6 on the SGP, so we are pretty close there, certainly within range allowing for some other variables.

Jake,
Here is a pic of the "Razor" (think this was developed by Phil McKnight when he consulted for Breville) sitting in my 18g VST basket. As I mentioned because the side notches are 8mm deep, that is its depth and where the surface of your compressed puck should be for perfect headspace on my BDB. My distro tool is set to 10mm, therefore, theoretically I should see daylight after using the distro tool and inserting the Razor...there should be 2mm of gap space, but with three coffees so far, the gap is a sliver...not 2mm. It's what I'm calling "spring back". Maybe it has something to do with RDT or just moisture in the air that is causing the beans to swell on a micro level?! No complaints...pour rate and flavor have never been better!!

Just thought you would be interested in this method vs. the nickel test.

Yes... I kind'a glossed over those comments. But yes, we still need a certain level of compaction. The distro tool is actually performing as a pseudo tamper and groomer all in one! Bingo!

Jake_G wrote:Bob, thanks for the photo!

My point is that I'm pretty sure you could drop your dose by 1.5g or more, and use your grooming tool set to 10mm and everything would look a-ok when you check it with the razor. But your pour would be junk.

You would need to tamp to full compression and then drop the razor in to see that your dose is too low to take advantage of the preset depth of your tool. You would then increase your dose until tamping didn't really make a difference to be at a place where the grooming tool alone gives you consistent results.

Am I making sense?

This is my experience with these grooming tools. Pre-tamp puck looks amazing and the pulls have major channeling and the shot is garbage.