Italians don't know they are drinking such bad coffee - Page 3

#21: Post by **yakster** » January 10th, 2019, 3:41 pm

Good point. Also, straight shots of espresso (with sugar) are popular in Italy, here in the US, not so much. Most of the drinks here are served with milk so it's hard to make a good comparison.

January 10th, 2019, 5:49 pm

This is so true. I gave a shot of espresso from my Pavoni to a lab partner today, and he was extremelly shocked at how strong it was compared to what he normally drinks. However, he did enjoy it, so I believe there are more people interested in straight espresso in America, but simply do not realize it!

#23: Post by **dominico** » January 10th, 2019, 6:37 pm

Having lived and worked in both Italy and the US, its easier to get good tasting espresso in Italy, but very hard to get great tasting espresso in Italy. Italians expect consistency with their coffee and they get it, and it is consistently decent.
Third wave coffee is extremely inconsistent; you might get a beautifully extracted shot, an "aha!" moment, and you might get battery acid. Either way you are paying 3 bucks for it. My cousins also complain that coffee service in the US is ridiculously slow, but that could be another issue.
There are a few specialty coffee shops springing up in Italy that are seeing some success, but they are fighting an uphill battle, with price regulation and "cultural acceptance". The one's I've tried shots from have already been very good, and consistently good. Something that we over here are still struggling with. When they do grab more of a foothold in the Italian market the Italians will have the best of both worlds.

I usually have 2 to 3 coffees "on tap" at home, a couple single origins and an Italian blend. How do you tell if you've been served a good coffee? It isn't how distinctive or "interesting" the flavors are, or the clarity of the cup, it's If you want to drink another one after you've had the first.

#24: Post by **slipchuck** » January 10th, 2019, 7:18 pm

randomorbit wrote:I'm not sure it's the Italians who don't know they're being served bad coffee. Over recent years I've visited any number of fancy specialty coffee shops in the USA utilizing the best and shiniest equipment available, and "3rd wave" beans only to be served a lemony sour shot.

Honestly in my experience it's easier to get an acceptable shot from stale Italian roast beans than from the currently fashionable light roasts. As I think a lot of us have discovered getting the best out of lighter roasts requires very tight control over all the variables, and a fair amount of trial and error. These are not things that can be easily and reliably done in a busy cafe with a number of baristas. Therefore if you're not committed to training and controlling your consistency very closely, you're probably better off going with a more traditional roast that is more forgiving. Just installing a Linea, and Malkoneig k30 are not going to result in great coffee without well trained and consistent baristas, but I have been served bad shots in any number of cafes with precisely that equipment, who are serving beans from great 3rd wave roasters.

In other words I feel like the current trend towards specialty coffees in the U.S. and small roasters springing up everywhere and jumping on the 3rd wave bandwagon is resulting in lots of very fancy, expensive, bad coffee. I can't say for sure, but I would probably rather have the fast cheap commodity coffee served in a lot of Italian Espresso bars than a lot of the under roasted, under extracted shots served in a lot of U.S. specialty cafes.

Why people want their coffee to taste like fruit (light roast) is a bit baffling to me. At least when you get a chocolate bomb there is at least a touch of what "regular" coffee taste like..but to each their own

Randy

#25: Post by **CwD** » January 10th, 2019, 7:28 pm

"Regular" coffee is a cherry-like fruit. Traditional coffee is what's distant from what coffee is. I don't care if somebody else enjoys it, but a chocolate bomb is unmistakably more distant from "regular" coffee than a fruit bomb.

#26: Post by **jammin** » January 10th, 2019, 8:06 pm

civ wrote: Espresso is an intrinsic part of Italian culture

There is neat thread posted last year & I wish I could provide a link. It was an article written about coffee preferences & it linked in culture as well a very interesting thought about local gastro-intestinal flora and how all of this influenced one's taste. If anyone can remember this and help me out with a link I feel it's on topic?

civ wrote:I mean, if I want blueberries (or whatever comes with light roasted beans) in my espresso, I'll have it with a slice of US style blueberry pie.

This makes me think of the craft beer scene, specifically IPA's. This decade has seen the birth & massive growth of "Hazy IPA's" which are known for their low bitterness & extremely juicy/fruity hop flavors/aroma. Traditionally, the key feature of an IPA is it's bitterness, or IBU content. This is achieved by boiling hops in the wort to isomerize their Alpha-Acids. About 10 years ago when IPA's really experienced a surge of popularity, there was essentially an "IBU War". Every bottle of IPA had bold advertising bragging about it's bitterness, often times topping 100 IBU's.
Much like green coffee, hops have very unique terroir depending on their variety and where they are grown. Much like roasting coffee, the more you boil the hops the more bitter the beer is. We are all familiar with 3rd-Wave coffee which is often lightly roasted in the best effort to showcase the beans terroir. In craft beer, the same thing happened with the birth of Hazy IPA. Brewers drastically reduced hop additions at the beginning of the boil and started loading the kettle after "flame-out" and doing the same during & after fermentation with advanced dry hopping techniques. The resulting beers are loaded with flavors described as "juicy, fruity, berry, tropical" etc.
So to your comment about getting a slice of pie if you want berries would be similar to saying if I wanted mango juice in my IPA I'd just get a piece of fruit. We enjoy these profiles as they showcase the unique terroir of the bean and offer variety based region, roasting style and processing method. Germans often get hung up on this same thing when it comes to beer. They still love to pound their chest about "reinheitsgebot" law founded beers and act like American are a bunch of children in the craft. The truth is, Americans have revolutionized coffee AND beer and everyone else is playing catch-up.

#27: Post by **civ** » January 10th, 2019, 9:03 pm

Hello:

another_jim wrote:These "bad Italian espresso" articles actually prove how good Italian espresso really is ...

+1
Now that's one Quotable Quote if I ever read one. =-)

Cheers,

CIV

#28: Post by **TomC** » January 10th, 2019, 10:01 pm

jammin wrote:This makes me think of the craft beer scene, specifically IPA's... The truth is, Americans have revolutionized coffee AND beer and everyone else is playing catch-up.

+1

Very good analogy.

#29: Post by **TomC** » January 10th, 2019, 10:17 pm

jammin wrote:There is neat thread posted last year & I wish I could provide a link. It was an article written about coffee preferences & it linked in culture as well a very interesting thought about local gastro-intestinal flora and how all of this influenced one's taste. If anyone can remember this and help me out with a link I feel it's on topic?

Scott Rao's article.

https://www.scottrao.com/blog/2017/8/12 ... avor-notes

Briefly discussed last year, but we all at HB didn't dwell too much on the gut flora aspect, it seems more of the discussion circled around Scott's bold decrees and folks reactions to it. I'd rather hear more investigation into the gut flora personally because it's immensely more interesting.

Scott Rao: "Interesting Flavor vs Flavor Balance"

#30: Post by **OldNuc** » January 11th, 2019, 8:38 am

The professional medical industry is just discovering the impact that the gut flora and diet has on the overall body. Most of the info presently available is coming from the holistic/herbal medicine world.

A quick example is take a look at the average Italian diet and the average Scandinavian diet. Then look at what they think is good/great coffee.