cafeIKE wrote:Under those conditions, with that coffee, within a gram is close enough... In shops with a high throughput and staff not of championship calibre, a properly adjusted doser could help save the customer from sinkers.

Championship calibre? If an experienced baristas can't consistently dose ± one gram, they were improperly trained. You may be right though that the combination of improved consistency and lower dosage could help avoid mishaps like yours at Discovery Coffee. A precision timer and doserless grinder would probably be a better answer. Mazzer is planning to introduce doserless versions of their cafe grinders later this year (more).

cafeIKE wrote:Scenes like these rarely occur in shops with dosers used as designed.

You refer to a cafe in the US? I've only see a few that use the doser as designed, and their espressos were among the worse I've ever tasted ("ashy cardboard flavored brown water" is the kindest description I can think of). I visited Milan and Rome many years ago, but wasn't seriously into espresso at the time. Those that I did drink were with two quick scoops of sugar from a community bowl. I thought they were good espressos, certainly better than what was served in the majority of cafes in Paris, but they were nothing remarkable.

HB wrote:You refer to a cafe in the US? I've only see a few that use the doser as designed, and their espressos were among the worse I've ever tasted ("ashy cardboard flavored brown water" is the kindest description I can think of).

I'll second that.

I see it far more often than I had ever wished, and in all fairness, the practice was actually improving the situation. The problem wasn't the doser. The problem was the lack of training. More often than not, situations involving "use of the doser as intended" are the direct result of a roaster trying to grasp SOME amount of control over quality standards where training just isn't present.

HB wrote:Championship calibre?

Definitely. Unless the barista is capable of holding their own in at least a regional contest, they have no business using techniques that require considerable effort to master. Would you order a souffle at Denny's?

HB wrote:A precision timer and doserless grinder would probably be a better answer.

Unless the grinder is specifically designed for accurate delivery, a precision timer is inutile. A standard grinder dispenses the coffee in packets of varying size, not a continous flow, resulting in large dose variances.

HB wrote:You refer to a cafe in the US?

The world. I walk out of far more shops than I sample. Unless the barista can answer who and when in reference to the roast, they rarely get a shot. If there are many customers, on balance the likelihood of getting a drinkable shot improves when there is less mano in the process.

Jasonian wrote:The problem was the lack of training.

I disagree. The problem is too much 'training.' If someone can't pull a decent shot well inside 20 minutes, they're over-trained. The problem is too many baristas practise for the WBC on customers. I didn't come for a show, just espresso.

cafeIKE wrote:Definitely. Unless the barista is capable of holding their own in at least a regional contest, they have no business using techniques that require considerable effort to master. Would you order a souffle at Denny's?

I don't think it's that hard (or regionals are that easy), so let's agree to disagree. The owner can buy a super-auto to eliminate the need for training too, but that's not the sort of place I would take the trouble to patronize.

cafeIKE wrote:Unless the grinder is specifically designed for accurate delivery, a precision timer is inutile. A standard grinder dispenses the coffee in packets of varying size, not a continous flow, resulting in large dose variances.

True, slapping on a timer won't work for many grinders, especially for clumpy grinders like yours (the Macap MC4). But I referred to Mazzer's design, which is patented and works as claimed (see Coffee grinder-dispenser for details). I'm sure there are other grinders that have similarly effective designs.

cafeIKE wrote:I walk out of far more shops than I sample. Unless the barista can answer who and when in reference to the roast, they rarely get a shot.

Interestingly, in my neck of the woods at least, the cafes that can't tell me what the roast date is correspond exactly with those that use the doser as designed. The line between Third Wave and not is pretty distinct up here.

I'm guessing though, cafeIKE, that you encounter much more often the cafe that has partially implemented some Third Wave practices (eg. paddle-thwacking), but not completely (knowledge of roaster and roast date, etc.). If I understand you correctly then, your thought is that you have to be an excellent barista to be able to use the grind per shot method, and that because truly excellent baristas are few and far between, you prefer seeing the doser used as designed in most instances for consistency's sake. Is that correct?

Nick wrote:Every so often, we get weird renegade barista techniques that creep into our baristas' repertoire. It's definitely possible that one or more of our folks were leveling off into the dosing chamber. They shouldn't be. I won't spare the rod.

Thanks for the clarification, Nick. I'm sorry if I've started any bad rumors.

HB wrote:True, slapping on a timer won't work for many grinders, especially for clumpy grinders like yours (the Macap MC4). But I referred to Mazzer's design, which is patented and works as claimed (see Coffee grinder-dispenser for details). I'm sure there are other grinders that have similarly effective designs.

From the photo's I've seen and the Mazzer's and Rocky's I've used, the (my?) MC4 is one of the least clumpy grinders. Perhaps because I don't grind stale, over-roasted, oily coffee and clean frequently? Or LA smog imparts anti-clumping properties?

ChrisC wrote:If I understand you correctly then, your thought is that you have to be an excellent barista to be able to use the grind per shot method, and that because truly excellent baristas are few and far between, you prefer seeing the doser used as designed in most instances for consistency's sake. Is that correct?

With the caveats the shop has enough customers to keep a reasonable influx of fresh grind into the properly adjusted doser, yes. If the shop sells only a handful of shots per day, no. In the latter case, it's almost a certainty that any method will deliver a substandard, most likely undrinkable, shot.

The trend in Boise's coffee shops is definitely toward the automated grinder/doser/tamper.
Interesting devices that remove a complication for the owner: all of that bothersome training and supervision.
Ah, progress.

david boise ID

Ah yes, the Swift -- the 'best' of both worlds. Fresh grind, but perfect repeatability. Except the baristas at my cafes don't really like them (and I think I'm starting to agree). CafeIKE, have you tried shots from the Swift? If so, what did you think?

Last year work exhibited at a coffee festival in Sydney. We took up a three group linea, a robur, a super jolly and a steam boiler. Between 10am and 5pm, we went through nearly 30kg of coffee. That was just a crazy day; at one point, the line actually overlapped and passed the line for the coffee company next to us, which was pretty funny. We had to dose by drop; there was no other way to do it. The grinders went pretty much non-stop all day; the super jolly overheated and crapped out half-way through, but the Robur handled it all like a champion.

I don't have a problem with cafes using dosers as designed, provided that the results are good ... and, of course, they often will not be. If the cafe is pretty much empty and the doser is full, it's definitely time to move on. If they have literally just had a rush of 20 orders and there is a little bit left, I'm willing to cut a little slack. Some commercial grinders are too slow, so it's necessary to start them grinding and leave them grinding whilst doing other things to prepare a big order (although the contents of the doser would be immediately dispensed).

As for how long coffee can sit; I think that that's a question best answered by actually trying it out for yourself.

Cheers,

Luca