How to recognize good espresso? - Page 3

Want to talk espresso but not sure which forum? If so, this is the right one.
RyanJE
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#21: Post by RyanJE »

bluesman wrote:If that's true, how could an amateur ever expect to make consistently great espresso at home with consumer machines if (as you believe) most pro shops can't do it with a lot of experience & serious equipment? I've had some excellent shots at many shops around the world, yet most people order milk drinks. Straight espresso is simply not that popular even where it's great.

I do agree that the chains turn out swill, and this makes their customer base less likely to try a shot anywhere else.
Factor in that many baristas are making drinks because its a job, not to make the best possible drink for the consumer. On the flip, I always try and make my drinks best possible because they are for me. This is in lieu of "just getting it done". In fact, I am confident that given the same equipment, beans, etc. I more often would make myself a better drink than a barista making me a drink.

However, that comes with a significant amount of learning and doing.
I drink two shots before I drink two shots, then I drink two more....

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csepulv
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#22: Post by csepulv »

RyanJE wrote:Factor in that many baristas are making drinks because its a job, not to make the best possible drink for the consumer.
I think this depends a lot on the cafe and the timing. When the shop has a long line, cranking out coffee can be their focus. But if you find less crowded times and talk the the barista, I've found many who take great pride in making great shots.

I suggest finding less busy times and talk to the baristas. Ask them what they are targeting in/out? What's their favorite coffee in the shop for espresso? For milk drinks? What suggestions might they have for an amateur? Ask them is there anything you should look for (in taste) for the shot they just served you? (tell them you are trying to learn, so it doesn't sound like challenge/test -- tread carefully with the last one and don't lead with it. :) )

I've found lots of baristas who love to talk shop and offer help. Some will even make me multiple shots, both to get it right and to help me taste differences. The latter isn't too common, but the former happens often enough (when the shop isn't busy).
Chris

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aecletec
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#23: Post by aecletec »

Having spoken to many baristi, they tell me it's the cranking out shots and quality control aspect which is the factor in poor quality espresso being served. Shots that are calibrated for milk drinks aren't also the best for tasting without.

baristeer (original poster)
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#24: Post by baristeer (original poster) »

RyanJE wrote:If you're gonna spend 1000 look at the breville dual boiler. It will be 1000 with widely available bed bath beyond coupons.
I considered Breville before since it has pretty good reviews on Amazon and other sites. But Breville does not seem to be a popular brand here. It's also on the large side. Is this the cheapest dual boiler machine you can get?

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bluesman
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#25: Post by bluesman »

aecletec wrote:Having spoken to many baristi, they tell me it's the cranking out shots and quality control aspect which is the factor in poor quality espresso being served. Shots that are calibrated for milk drinks aren't also the best for tasting without.
That's a big part of the problem. With so little demand for shots and almost none for ristrettos, very few shops maintain a separate grinder and use different profiles solely for great shots. And most home baristas have one grinder & one machine, with little time or inclination to alter all parameters every morning for his ristretto & her capp.

The OP is seeking but having great difficulty finding a straight espresso shot that she likes, with the intent to get a home machine to duplicate it when she finds it. If I read correctly, she hasn't had a shot yet that made her truly happy, and she's been to at least a few very good shops. So perhaps she'd be better off getting a good home machine for the milk drinks she does like, and experimenting with espresso over time. If, as I believe, it is truly an acquired taste for most, she'll either get it at some point or stop trying and enjoy the foam. There's no harm either way and a lot of pleasure in the interim.

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Almico
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#26: Post by Almico »

aecletec wrote:Having spoken to many baristi, they tell me it's the cranking out shots and quality control aspect which is the factor in poor quality espresso being served. Shots that are calibrated for milk drinks aren't also the best for tasting without.
In my world you calibrate for a great shot and then add milk. Anything less is just lazy.

I think part of the problem in the USA can be that espresso machines are used for cranking out Americanos far more than espressos, lattes and cappuccinos, at least in my area. In my bar I'm going to serve Fetco batch brew for American style coffee, individual pour overs for people that want a show, and leave the espresso machine for making great espresso.

A big part of the journey for me was calibrating my palette for great espresso. "What the heck is it SUPPOSED to taste like?". With so much bad espresso around, it's like playing the slot machines at a casino. The best definition I heard for what is great espresso is: it's when you're done with the first, you just have to have another. It's not something to be endured, it's something to be savored, even cherished. But even the most sublime god-shot would be a shock to the system for a newcomer.

There is a acclimation period. The problem is finding a great source of espresso to get acclimated to. I did it the hard way: at home, with my own roasted beans. Not recommended. Too many variables. But I'm glad I did. I now have developed espresso roasts so perfect for me, that the bag of Cafe Lusso that came with my Monolith was tried, and then given away. It was fresh and good, but not what I want in espresso.

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bluesman
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#27: Post by bluesman »

Almico wrote:great espresso....[is] not something to be endured, it's something to be savored, even cherished. But even the most sublime god-shot would be a shock to the system for a newcomer.
Absolutely right - that's what I'm talkin' about! And not everyone would (or should put endless effort into trying to) like even the best espresso. It's OK either way. Life is too short to waste a lot of energy on things you can't or don't need to change.

Aaron
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#28: Post by Aaron »

If it tastes good to you then it's good. We all have different "good". I like a sweet, fruity, acidic espresso.
“The powers of a man's mind are proportionate to the quantity of coffee he drinks” - James McKintosh

RyanJE
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#29: Post by RyanJE »

baristeer wrote:I considered Breville before since it has pretty good reviews on Amazon and other sites. But Breville does not seem to be a popular brand here. It's also on the large side. Is this the cheapest dual boiler machine you can get?
Just to be clear, it's the breville dual boiler. Not just any Breville.

It's fairly popular around here and if you do a search you'll see why. In fact, it's also in Dans newbie videos. I think it's the one about buying advice.
I drink two shots before I drink two shots, then I drink two more....

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RioCruz
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#30: Post by RioCruz »

RyanP wrote:I will argue that good third wave coffee isn't sour.
I should have qualified my statement by saying "...in my personal experience with some of the most celebrated 3rd wave roasters around, such as Verve, Cat and Cloud, Boxcar, etc. etc." lemon juice seems to be the predominant taste. Others, I'm sure, may have a different experience but apparently, Rebecca's seems to mirror my own.
"Nobody loves your coffee more than you do."
~James Freeman, Blue Bottle