Milligan wrote:I think the fact is, if it was a true cost/benefit analysis then one would not drink espresso.

So you price the benefit of espresso at $0?

I think coffee is worth something. I think being able to make it at home is worth something. I think the hobby aspect of it is worth something too. The problem is figuring out how much. Everybody is different.

espressotime wrote:You live in Groningen?

I thought the same thing looking for decent espresso....but nope, I live in 'bourgondisch Brabant'

jpender wrote:So you price the benefit of espresso at $0?

He doesn't mean that the benefit of espresso is $0, but that the cost (in the cost/benefit ratio) is too high.
In fact, espresso is by far the most expensive way to brew coffee. All other methods that I know are, in comparison, very cheap:
Napoletana, €20.
Moka, €20.
French press, €20.
Pour over, €20.
Turkish coffee, €20.
Cold extraction, €20.
Espresso: €400 - 4000

Truth be told, once one puts the cost of the grinder into the equation, the "total cost" of espresso becomes not so huge any more.

If one takes the grinder out of the equation, espresso soon becomes insanely expensive for the preference. Luckily for us, we are able to find excuses to justify the expense. Finding excuses to justify an expense is another way of saying "having a hobby".

One thing I would notice, though: coffee lovers end up trying all sort of methods. One is not really exclusively devoted to espresso only, or Moka only, etc. From what I gather, coffee lovers tend to try several methods and to actually use them routinely. And that's my case as well. If I had to justify the added cost of espresso rationally I couldn't, considering how much I like coffee brewed with the Moka and the Napoletana. I don't like espresso "20 times more" than Moka coffee, so to speak.

jpender wrote:So you price the benefit of espresso at $0?

I think coffee is worth something. I think being able to make it at home is worth something. I think the hobby aspect of it is worth something too. The problem is figuring out how much. Everybody is different.

You snipped the part of my post where I explain myself. Not doing something based on cost/benefit doesn't mean it has zero benefit. My post was mostly pointing out that espresso is so much more expensive than practically any other way to brew coffee that it is nearly impossible to rationally justify using traditional cost/benefit.

I don't pretend that my espresso consumption is rational and I do not run it through a cost/benefit analysis because it would be hopeless.

I make espresso at home because I am a rambling, pleasure seeking ape. Cost? What cost?

Milligan wrote:You snipped the part of my post where I explain myself.

I was not quoting you, but user jpender, who replied to you as if you thought that "espresso" has no value. It has value - you bet - but it has a cost as well.

I ultimately think that certain coffee expenditure are irrational, and espresso expenditures border on madness, but what is life without a grain of madness?

Qui vit sans folie n'est pas si sage qu'il croit

Milligan wrote:You snipped the part of my post where I explain myself. Not doing something based on cost/benefit doesn't mean it has zero benefit. My post was mostly pointing out that espresso is so much more expensive than practically any other way to brew coffee that it is nearly impossible to rationally justify using traditional cost/benefit.

I didn't mean to take your comment out of context. But your explanation still doesn't take into account the value of espresso in and of itself. Before I bought an espresso machine I already had several different ways of making good coffee. But none of them were espresso. And I *wanted* espresso specifically. Other brewed coffee isn't espresso anymore than tea is coffee. It's a hot, caffeinated beverage but it isn't espresso.

So -- for me -- espresso has value over and above coffee brewed in other ways. By the same token, if I already had an espresso machine I would put value on having an Aeropress or a V60 or a moka pot or a cezve or whatever.

And that's the main point. The value is completely up to the individual to decide. For me it was about $600 and relatively non-intrusive. That passed my own cost/benefit limit. If I'd had to spend $2000 I wouldn't have done it. If I had needed to devote more than a tiny amount of counter space I wouldn't have done it even if the equipment were free. If making espresso were going to take up a lot of my time I wouldn't have done it. Those limits are all very personal and impossible to extrapolate to other people.

Espressofilo wrote:I was not quoting you, but user jpender, who replied to you as if you thought that "espresso" has no value. It has value - you bet - but it has a cost as well.

I ultimately think that certain coffee expenditure are irrational, and espresso expenditures border on madness, but what is life without a grain of madness?

Qui vit sans folie n'est pas si sage qu'il croit

I wasn't quoting you either . I was directing my comments to jpender.

Ah, true!

This thread reminds to me a Lavazza TV advertisement by famous actor Manfredi, which had a slogan which lasted for too many years in Italy, and which I had to endure for my entire youth: Il caffè è un piacere. Se non è buono, che piacere è?! Coffee is a pleasure. If it isn't good, what (kind of) pleasure is it?!

The good thing about making coffee is that there is an easy gauge to figure out the ROI. Local cafe charges $ per cup. Compare that to the cost of making it at home and it's easy to come up with a number. Is it really necessary though? Think about some of the other hobbies that some us of do where the only ROI is pleasure. If you golf, it's pretty easy to have thousands wrapped up in clubs and ugly slacks. Then there are greens fees which can easily cost a couple hundred dollars per round. ROI? Do you snow ski? Let's compare the ROI to espresso on that one! I have friends that have sailboats that cost several hundred thousand dollars per boat. Add marina fees, maintenance etc and you get my point. There are lots of things we do for enjoyment where the ROI is just for fun and enjoyment. In thirty years of making espresso, I've bought a lot of equipment and spent a lot of money on beans, but compared to other things I enjoy, it's actually been one of the least expensive hobbies I do.

Marcelnl wrote:I thought the same thing looking for decent espresso....but nope, I live in 'bourgondisch Brabant'

Jongu