Help! BWT filter/softening system doesn't appear to soften - Page 2

Water analysis, treatment, and mineral recipes for optimum taste and equipment health.
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erics
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#11: Post by erics »

I feel pretty misled by this product if everything I'm seeing is like I think it is.
But, MAYBE its not.

I find it interesting that neither the SCAA nor some major machine manufacturers specify total hardness (general hardness) but certainly put a limit on calcium hardness. This particular BWT filter may produce a magnesium compound that is NOT a "scaler". Test kits are readily available for calcium hardness and pH with the primary goal for anyone testing the water going in and the water product coming out.
Skål,

Eric S.
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sluflyer06 (original poster)
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#12: Post by sluflyer06 (original poster) replying to erics »

A woman from tech support at WLL implied that 130ppm was in the safe range, but according to Schulman's FAQ 130 hardness with Alk at 50, is for sure in the scaling area of the chart, especially in the steam boiler. The problem now is how would we even test your theory, I will have trouble relying on the word of a employee of BWT that I'm protected unless i can test the water myself. I'm sure he'll probably get back to me in the morning.

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homeburrero
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#13: Post by homeburrero »

erics wrote:I find it interesting that neither the SCAA nor some major machine manufacturers specify total hardness (general hardness) but certainly put a limit on calcium hardness.
I think where manufacturers and general advice use GH (general hardness or total hardness) as a limit, they are keeping the advice simple and conservative, and assuming that most or all of the hardness is due to calcium ions. This is true even of the Jim Schulman water FAQ, where the tables are based primarily on LSI calculations. (LSI calculations are based on calcium, TDS/conductivity, HCO3/alkalinity, temperature, and pH.)

If you're making water using Epsom salts, or using one of these Mg replacement filters, then the scaling issues become harder to predict. You can estimate the limescale (CaCO3) scaling based on a measure of calcium hardness and alkalinity, and you can get drop titration kits for calcium hardness, for example the Hach HA-4P, but it is much more expensive and probably a little less accurate for the calcium hardness. But if you are going to evaluate this filter with a test it would be good to measure calcium hardness, total hardness, and alkalinity.

P.S.:
That UK forum link is interesting. (Thanks for posting that, Sam.) The measurements posted there support the assumption that this is a WAC resin, which should in theory reduce the total hardness and the alkalinity by a roughly equal amount. (As GlennV put it, the GH-KH should stay roughly constant.) In practice, I think modern versions of these filters use some buffering agent so that the alkalinity is restored somewhat in order to keep the pH reasonably close to neutral, and I think this is the case for the BWT filter. But still, I think Anthony's measurements that indicate that both hardness and alkalinity are unchanged even at the lowest bypass setting is a little befuddling. They could possibly have tweaked their filter since the time of those UK forum posts in 2015. In theory at least, it seems like a lot more MgO based buffering in the filter might be enough to keep both the total hardness and the alkalinity high while reducing the calcium hardness.
Pat
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sluflyer06 (original poster)
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#14: Post by sluflyer06 (original poster) replying to homeburrero »

I did read either here on HB or Coffeeforums UK someone propose that if you pull your test sample at a high flow rate that it may not be softened the same as it would be drawn at the rates our machines do...the purge valve i have has a very high flow rate unless you carefully modulate it, I have no idea if what that poster said had any merit to it, but when I get home from work today I'll certainly try pulling a sample from the filter at a slow steady pace and report back.

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JohnB.
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#15: Post by JohnB. »

homeburrero wrote:FWIW, Nuovo Simonelli's Victoria Arduino Black Eagle does specify a max total hardness of 3 gpg (51 mg/l as CaCO3), which is a little lower than everyone else. See for example: http://www.nuovadistribution.com/images ... 0Sheet.pdf
It may be more than a coincidence that the WBC standard water spec hardness was dropped a little, to 51 mg/l in 2016, which is when the Black Eagle became the WBC official espresso machine.
Chris Coffee Service advises keeping the hardness at or below 51ppm/3 grains as does Kees van der Westen. Kees used to supply a commercial grade softener with each new Speedster. Not sure if he still does or if it's optional.

With my well water 130ppm will produce LOTS & LOTS of scale. Hell even Synesso's 85ppm will. I keep mine right around 40ppm.
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Balthazar_B
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#16: Post by Balthazar_B replying to JohnB. »

John, so just to clarify, you're just filtering your well water, not softening it? Important to be very specific with TDS, PPM, and TH (the latter of which refers to scale building potential, while the others may or may not depending on whether the Ca and Mg ions have been replaced with Na or K ions).
- John

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JohnB.
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#17: Post by JohnB. »

My post was discussing hardness levels so I thought that what my 40ppm was referring to would be obvious. To clarify I run my well water through 2 sediment filters before it enters the household plumbing. Under both our kitchen sink & my coffeebar I have a generic filtering setup consisting of a softening cartridge followed by a carbon filter. Both set ups have bypass valves which allow me to control the hardness of the water entering my machines & drinking water faucets that I've added to both sinks. Since I'm using sodium based softening cartridges the ph/alkalinity of my well water is not affected.
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sluflyer06 (original poster)
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#18: Post by sluflyer06 (original poster) »

So I just got off the phone with Dragan Dekic in Germany at BWT's main office. He is saying that standard total hardness titration tests will show no results with this filter and that I need to be using a different test kit. He mentioned something about using a de-carbonization test???

Has anyone heard of needing to use a specific type of hardness test to get results out of a filter. I'm not really sure what I'm looking for in terms of a kit, but my skepticism does not want me using a BWT supplied test kit.

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#19: Post by JohnB. »

I think you may be looking long & hard for that kit as far as testing for water hardness goes.
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#20: Post by sluflyer06 (original poster) replying to JohnB. »

I don't even know what I'm looking for is the problem... what is the difference between a "normal" hardness test from API vs what BWT claims I need...