Have we reached the end of innovation? - Page 6

Want to talk espresso but not sure which forum? If so, this is the right one.
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malachi
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#51: Post by malachi »

Given that even on this site, with this tiny (and fanatic) demographic, we cannot agree on fundamentals of what makes a good espresso -- and given that even here people regularly talk positively about coffee bars and coffees that others of us consider to be unacceptably poor -- it's hard to imagine a coffee review that would work.

Choose SF coffee bars as an example.
I can guarantee that a large percentage of readers of this post who have had coffee in SF will name as one of their top recommended coffee spots one of the cafes that I (as an example) would never recommend anyone drink coffee in. Are they wrong? Am I?
What's in the cup is what matters.

Espin
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#52: Post by Espin »

malachi wrote:I can guarantee that a large percentage of readers of this post who have had coffee in SF will name as one of their top recommended coffee spots one of the cafes that I (as an example) would never recommend anyone drink coffee in. Are they wrong? Am I?
I think it really needs to be several different sets of taste preferences (and groups of critics).

To someone with an unrefined palate who just wants "good coffee", any of them will work - they'll all be "good coffee".

For someone who has been doing this a while, if you say "In general, my tastes agree with critic Abe Johnson's, and if critic Bruce Smith says it's good but not to his taste, I'll probably like it", that may be more useful.


As far as technological innovation, my epiphany this morning was essentially a waterhammer arrester between the electric pump and the group, to smooth out the pressure variations. (Manufacturers may thank me for the idea by sending me a sample machine.)

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timo888
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#53: Post by timo888 »

malachi wrote:Given that even on this site, with this tiny (and fanatic) demographic, we cannot agree on fundamentals of what makes a good espresso -- and given that even here people regularly talk positively about coffee bars and coffees that others of us consider to be unacceptably poor -- it's hard to imagine a coffee review that would work.

Choose SF coffee bars as an example.
I can guarantee that a large percentage of readers of this post who have had coffee in SF will name as one of their top recommended coffee spots one of the cafes that I (as an example) would never recommend anyone drink coffee in. Are they wrong? Am I?
But since two objective criteria would form the core of the "review":
  • recently roasted
  • ground immediately before extraction (or if ground that morning then roasted that morning)
we wouldn't have to worry much about the inevitable disagreements among experts and/or fanatics about the nuances of the coffee preparation or bean quality. They would appear in the Expert Opinions section anyway.

The goal in focusing on these two simple objective criteria would be to improve the lot of the average coffee drinker, who is normally given old beans ground too soon. There is almost universal agreement on these two criteria.

Nick
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#54: Post by Nick »

Interesting thread.

My first thought regards the subject line itself. Should I read it as "Have we reached the END of innovation?" or "Have WE reached the end of innovation?"

Online discussions all over the web wax and wane for different reasons, and those most engaged are a select group (as has been mentioned in this thread). To me, what's really diminished my interest in online discussions is my growing perception of a disparity between what people are writing or writing about in forums, and their actual skills, abilities, experience, or knowledge.

I've encountered all too many enthusiastic and online-active barista (both home-barista and 'professional') who talk the proverbial talk, 'talk' often, and can't dose or pull a decent shot to save their life. They'll dissect techniques and muse about 0.1*F water temps, and they have the barista-dexterity of a 9 month old.

Innovation is happening. It's just less fun for the innovators to be talking about it online these days.

Still, an interesting topic nonetheless. Indeed, espresso machine development has progressed to the point that baristas can no longer blame an untameable rig for poor shots, and the attention has turned to technique, grinders, and coffee knowledge. I heard from a friend who's a higher-up at a well-known espresso machine manufacturer who, having recently launched a new version of a very popular machine, expressed a bit of befuddlement at the lack of interest from the barista community... despite the fact that "they've been asking for this for years!"

Anyway, interesting topic.
Nick
wreckingballcoffee.com
nickcho.com

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another_jim
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#55: Post by another_jim »

Hi Nick,
Nick wrote:I've encountered all too many enthusiastic and online-active barista (both home-barista and 'professional') who talk the proverbial talk, 'talk' often, and can't dose or pull a decent shot to save their life. They'll dissect techniques and muse about 0.1*F water temps, and they have the barista-dexterity of a 9 month old.
Glad to see your interpersonal skills are still as sharp as ever.

The leading edge may be a little slow while the latest round of innovations: better grinders and technique, and the way these permit a wider variety of coffees to be used for espresso, is making its way through the community.

But it won't mean squat unless all the nine month olds start drinking espresso instead of special order fou-fou drinks.
Jim Schulman

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HB
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#56: Post by HB »

Nick wrote:I've encountered all too many enthusiastic and online-active barista (both home-barista and 'professional') who talk the proverbial talk, 'talk' often, and can't dose or pull a decent shot to save their life.
I've encountered both extremes.

That is, those like Nick describes who are active forum contributors, but fail to put their 'talk' into practice at home. It's easy to fall into the trap of misjudging one's work if you don't frequently compare it to others (see What does your typical espresso rate? for related discussion). A couple times I've met online members and had the opposite experience: They were much better baristas in person than their online contributions let on.

(And no, I'm not naming names from either extreme. :wink:)
Dan Kehn

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Marshall
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#57: Post by Marshall »

FWIW, I once asked one of my engineer roommates in college why they still worked so hard at engineering, since everything we really needed had already been invented. That was ... ummm ... 1969.
Marshall
Los Angeles

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stefano65
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#58: Post by stefano65 »

Let's wait after the Milano show in October to give an answer
although a lot is stagnant there are still a lot of new things coming........
or old ones re designed
or old old ones cleaned up etc etc
Stefano Cremonesi
Stefano's Espresso Care
Repairs & sales from Oregon.

Vad
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#59: Post by Vad »

stefano65: Hi. Where can I find more info on the Milano show, I would like to attend it too :)

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stefano65
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#60: Post by stefano65 »

google
HOST fiera di milano
that should give you all
Stefano Cremonesi
Stefano's Espresso Care
Repairs & sales from Oregon.