Has Espresso Become a Hobby for the Rich? - Page 16

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yoshi005
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#151: Post by yoshi005 »

@Peter Agree on most points.

The problem is that the premium we pay for our equipment just for it being 'espresso gear' has risen steeply in the last few years.
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another_jim
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#152: Post by another_jim »

pcrussell50 wrote: To the extent that high capability equipment has a role to play in pursuit of the best espresso, my take thus far is that high capability equipment can: ...
It's nice that we're trotting out the party political platforms. But the truth remains that we as hobbyists buy gear based on our discussions. After a certain point, the connection between rising expenditure and a tastable difference in the cup is quite simply a hallucination brought on by these discussions. I do routine blind tasting, so I know this for certain. People do get a lot more skilled as they progress in the hobby, and their choices of beans get a lot better, so their coffee gets better. The ever blingier gear does get you coolness points and a contented feeling when you use it. This is fine if the coolness and contentedness are rising along with the expenditure; but for those just keeping up so as not to feel left behind, it's kind of sad.
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CwD
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#153: Post by CwD »

another_jim wrote:After a certain point, the connection between rising expenditure and a tastable difference in the cup is quite simply a hallucination brought on by these discussions. I do routine blind tasting, so I know this for certain.
Depends wildly on the equipment. Some $3,000 grinders aren't any better than $500 ones (here's lookin at you, Mazzer). Others there's an objective and measurable difference. Pull me a 1:1 >24% extraction shot of a Nordic roast on a Robur or Mythos in 30seconds like a SSP'd EK can. I'll wait.

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AssafL
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#154: Post by AssafL »

yoshi005 wrote:The problem is that the premium we pay for our equipment just for it being 'espresso gear' has risen steeply in the last few years.
One aspect of the hobby is that some expect commercial like quality (think Miele Gaggenau) in pro grade equipment (read LM, Mazzer, D-C, KvdW even VL). They can return a machine for having sub-stellar finish, a hose with a 3/8" fitting on one side but a 1/4" on the other, or makes less than impressive noise (all these examples are right here on H-B).

Manufacturers and distributors have to price these returned machines as well as the handling costs associated with these buyers into their price lists. Or try to avoid hobbyists (as some do).

That is not to say commercial users are less likely to suffer from buyers' remorse - just that they have a business to run and have less free time to dwell on minutia.
Scraping away (slowly) at the tyranny of biases and dogma.

pcrussell50
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#155: Post by pcrussell50 »

another_jim wrote:It's nice that we're trotting out the party political platforms.
Sorry Jim, but ^^^ this statement ^^^ went right over my head.
another_jim wrote:After a certain point, the connection between rising expenditure and a tastable difference in the cup is quite simply a hallucination.
Interesting. If anybody's opinion around here bears listening to, it's yours. I must exist on both sides of the cusp of that "certain point" of which you speak. For my range of equipment, it matters. A lot. The group on my Pre-Millennium Pavoni lever will eventually reach nearly the steam boiler temperature and boiling espresso will emerge from the shower screen unless steps are taken to manage the temperature. On the other hand, my temperature stable machine has no such requirement. In the case of my machines, some take more ritual in order to obtain the best flavor in the cup.

-Peter
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chimopaul
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#156: Post by chimopaul »

another_jim wrote:...... After a certain point, the connection between rising expenditure and a tastable difference in the cup is quite simply a hallucination brought on by these discussions. ...
I agree. That's where I was going with the "knee of the curve" graph in an earlier post.

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felyko
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#157: Post by felyko »

Javier wrote:Unless I am misunderstanding your main point, I have to disagree with you. I have been entirely immersed in this hobby for at least 23 years. And also joined Alt.Coffee in the late 1990s (when Jim Schulman; Greg Scace; Alan Frew; Barry Jarret; etc. were the main posters).

There were fewer "prosumer" and commercial machines available at that time (compared to nowadays), and they were significantly less expensive than today's prices.

EDIT TO SAY - this is a hobby for the "rich", as in rich at heart. :D
Are you taking inflation into account?

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another_jim
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#158: Post by another_jim »

pcrussell50 wrote:Sorry Jim, but ^^^ this statement ^^^ went right over my head ...

... For my range of equipment, it matters. A lot. The group on my Pre-Millennium Pavoni lever will eventually reach nearly the steam boiler temperature and boiling espresso will emerge from the shower screen unless steps are taken to manage the temperature. On the other hand, my temperature stable machine has no such requirement. In the case of my machines, some take more ritual in order to obtain the best flavor in the cup.
I was talking about going from a sweet spot setup that runs 1.5K to 3K for grinder and machine to one that runs 7.5K to 15K. You get way cooler stuff, but no taste change. Trying to justify this by claiming that with experience you will eventually reach a level of taste refinement that justifies these expenditures is feel good talk, (i.e. party political platforms -- sorry for expression, it was primary day Tuesday here in Illinois, and I'm a poli-junkie)

The Pavoni is a sentimentally overpriced basic espresso machine. So, yes, moving on from a Pavoni will get you both a real increase in quality and a decrease in masochism (or perhaps decrease in espresso making as Sudoku)
Jim Schulman

grind727
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#159: Post by grind727 »

another_jim wrote:The Pavoni is a sentimentally overpriced basic espresso machine. So, yes, moving on from a Pavoni will get you both a real increase in quality and a decrease in masochism (or perhaps decrease in espresso making as Sudoku)
Jim, I would love to know what your $1500-3000 sweet spot picks are. As someone that struggles with my La Pavoni, occasionally producing a great shot followed by lots of mediocre ones, I've been thinking of moving on.

While I know that there are tons of threads about different machines, reviews, and the how to select a machine thread, what I would really like to know is what you, Jim Schulman, would buy with your money. There's almost too much information and too many meandering threads to pick through. I would love to see a thread on the "council of elders" type picks (elders meaning wisdom and experience, not age of course :D ) with yours, Dan's, and other HB luminaries' top selections in the "sweet spot" price range you mentioned above.

Apologies for getting off topic.
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OldNuc
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#160: Post by OldNuc »

You already have the manual Robur burr grinder so in most cases you are set for a grinder. That puts your sweet spot in the $1500-$2000 range.