pcrussell50 wrote:While it is a given that bad coffee is easy to make in all situations and on any equipment through any measure of incapacity or neglect, I'm quite sure you are not saying that the capability of the equipment makes no difference in the effort required to make good coffee.

No, of course not. But I am saying your Category #1 doesn't exist:

1) high quality gear that performs well with minimum effort and is expensive

"Minimum effort" gets you minimum coffee. You still have to monitor each shot, recognize the effects of aging and humidity on the beans and adjust grinder and espresso machine appropriately. I'll take a shot prepared by Heather Perry on a Breville over a random barista on a Slayer any day.

When people ask me for machine recommendations, I first ask what effort they are willing to put into the process and usually wind up recommending Nespresso.

Sigh... Minimum effort relative to using equipment that requires more effort to achieve a the best possible result.

-Peter

O.K. "Less effort." Agreed. I wasn't being obtuse. There are people who think if you spend enough money, then you can just leave everything to the machine.

BTW learning to use my new MP conical (installed this morning) is requiring yet another skill set.

Agreed. Sadly, I see your point about people being susceptible to believing that high capability equipment can take the Mano out of the picture.

Say, with the conical valve, and it's variable flow capability, does that mean you can no longer use it in the same binary, on-off way as the regular MP?

-Peter

The original MP was tertiary. Off>line pressure>full pump. There is no line pressure position on the conical. The pump comes on as soon as you start moving the paddle, and the paddle position determines how much of the flow is diverted to the drip tray.

Back to the original question - does it need to be a GS3 MP?

I have friends with all kinds of machines. Quick Mill, Rancilio, Bazzera, Bosco, etc. once in a while I pull a shot (or a few) on their equipment.

Am I disappointed with the quality of results? No.

Don't get me wrong: I have fun with the GS3 and all the mods I did to it. But that is an altogether different hobby (electronics, Arduino, control, etc). Adding full pressure and flow profiling in a cramped expo at would have been harder and probably less fulfilling.

Same for people quoted above that collect machines. Collecting espresso machines, modding espresso machines etc are all different hobbies than just "making espresso".

Interesting, Marshall. And in keeping with the spirit of this thread, that's also how the profiling mod works on the Breville Dual Boiler in that you turn the pump on and the unused flow from your manual profile ends up in the drip tray.

And yes Asaf, hobby is very much part of it. I lack the skills myself but I've often fantasized about an open source controller to replace the stock one in control of the sensor and actuator suite.

-Peter

Marshall wrote:O.K. "Less effort." Agreed. I wasn't being obtuse. There are people who think if you spend enough money, then you can just leave everything to the machine.

You can. It's called a Super Auto, and the dreck it produces is approximately the same quality as from hotel to hotel.

What difference does it make who spends how-much on what? Heck, there's always going to be someone with more money than I have, no matter how much I have. You know what, more power to 'em. I'm happy for them, congratulate them on whatever it is that makes them happy.

There's all kinds of equipment for making espresso at all price ranges. One can spend vast sums right into the blue sky for as much customization and cosmetic appeal imaginable. Or one can spend more moderate amounts of money for gear that makes perfectly good coffee.

A vast amount of serviceable used gear also is available if new equipment is out of the budget. There's also an enormous amount of equipment that needs work of some kind and can be had for nearly nothing. Lots of it isn't really broken, just needing cleaning, adjusting or minor stuff like o-rings and seals.

So why not just be content and pursue what makes you happy with the resources you are able to put into it, and be happy for those who can afford the stuff of dreams and are willing to share their experience with the rest of us?

nuketopia wrote: So why not just be content and pursue what makes you happy with the resources you are able to put into it, and be happy for those who can afford the stuff of dreams and are willing to share their experience with the rest of us?

The title of this thread suggests a call for debate about whether you need to spend a lot of money to get good espresso. After a bunch of looping and rolling and back and forth, it seems we have concluded that the most important component is the "mano". And that equipment with high capability improves the odds of success in the hands of a skilled "mano", though it won't overcome incapacity or neglect on his part.

To the extent that high capability equipment has a role to play in pursuit of the best espresso, my take thus far is that high capability equipment can:

1) Cost a lot and be of high quality
2) Cost less and be of high quality while being of a more manual nature... Hand cranked grinders with Robur burrs come to mind here, versus an electric Robur
3) Cost a (relative) little, in exchange for less expensive construction, while performing at the highest levels. We agreed that this category has the fewest options to choose from, as it is unusual for inexpensive equipment to match crucial specs (like temperature stability), with the top-cost saturated brew group category. Unusual, but not unheard of.

-Peter