Marshall wrote:Without casting aspersions on anyone's motives, I want to note that making fun of newbies IN ANY HOBBY, who immediately buy the most expensive and flashiest equipment, is a time-honored tradition. This is usually based on the fact that the newbie soon discovers that his (it's almost always a "his") $10,000 investment did not make him a great photographer, golfer, woodworker, etc. because he didn't have the skills to make proper use of the tools. So the toys soon go into the closet or onto Craigslist. Not a condemnation, just an observation.

As always, Marshall finds the sweet spot.

drgary wrote:The phrase that sticks out for me is "top 30." I am sure there are wonderful coffees outside that ranking, which itself is one reviewer's opinion. This isn't very different from buying "top rated" gear as an assurance factor. People deeper into the hobby explore fine coffees and different ways to roast and brew them, enjoying what we like without needing the pedigrees.

Makes sense. Wish it was the same in the songwriting world. Though I've had a modicum of success, not being an "A-List" songwriter puts the rest of us peons at a disadvantage. Often, (disregarding me) so-called B-list writers...like the "lowly" under $2k espresso machine can surprise you...if the skill level in FRONT of the porta filter is high.

The only reason why I bought a Breville BE unit was because I did not know the extent of the limitations at the time. If I had done a couple more days of research... my first purchase would be a R58 and a Monolith Grinder. Now I will grab them or something comparable in the next month or two.

As I tell everyone with any purchase..... "everything is overpriced, and you get what you pay for" so spend as much as you possibly can for the highest quality you can afford. This includes buying used, might get a $6,000 item for $2,500.

On the flip side- If you can't afford it, buy the best for what you can afford and get creative with your brewing methods. Be happy that you can still pull shots and more emportantly, that you enjoy the finer things in life...PRICELESS!

NO KIDS
NO CREDIT DEBT (aside from mortgage)
NO NEW IPHONE EVERY YEAR

I'm proud to have money to spend on things I enjoy. Pianos, Telescopes, Amouage Colognes, Traveling, espresso equipment. I work hard for it and would not feel bad in the slightest bit posting pictures of my $15,000 espresso machine. I'm not rich but I manage my money and lifestyle to fit my needs and desires.

Be proud of your $100,000 espresso setup, value is perceived in the eye of the beholder.

Be proud of your $150 espresso setup, it's not about the machine, it's about the journey of life...with espresso. And you might pull better shots than Johnny Millionare with it.

Life is not about money or who has more. If that bothers you, you will never find meaning or happiness.

Grind
Brew
Be Happy

Reflecting on my experience with espresso I'd say there are two main costs to getting a satisfactory demitasse (that would make one "satisfied" in comparison to competition from local coffee shops and Nespresso):

1. Equipment Costs (machine grinder and paraphernalia).
2. Cost of acquiring know how.

Did any of these go up?

The cost of acquiring know how dropped precipitously. When I joined HB we were all searching for an elusively and exclusively titled god shot. Now most of us achieve consistency rather easily. We understand not just what needs to happen but the why as well. That makes it easy to troubleshoot not just locally but remotely as well. I'd say it is fairly easy to join the espresso train today. Far easier than it was 10 years ago.

As for equipment I'd say prices dropped as well. However, and a big "however" at that, we do get a cottage industry of over promised products that under deliver. It is becoming harder to differentiate real value from red herrings. Is brushed aluminium really important? Does a hover board DC motor improve the grind? Barista branded dosing scrapers, brushes aluminium scales, wedges clovers and hydraulic presses, pugs and puqs. IMS VST Reneka and other baskets (each with small change for 100$); each with its own shower screen. And refractometers which measure - ahem - refractive index (and which will get Dan to lock this thread if we say anything more).

Machines are better and cheaper. And better made (even the Italian made ones). Nespresso did all of us a favor by killing the low, underdelivering level of the hobby. (The Mr Coffee machines).

So no; the hobby is as inexpensive as it ever has been and more. What we are seeing is the seperation of the hobby into a "hi-end" bling segment and the old hobby-pro segment. Segmentation.

Guess to which segment do famous Australian Baristas in bed with a grinder belong to? As for KvdW, Bosco, LM GS3, etc? IMHO these are low end commercial (catering) machines that can be used at home. Not without cost (as Yuki's Less than stellar experience jumping into the deep end has shown).

BillBurrGrinder wrote:The only reason why I bought a Breville BE unit was because I did not know the extent of the limitations at the time. If I had done a couple more days of research... my first purchase would be a R58 and a Monolith Grinder. Now I will grab them or something comparable in the next month or two.

As I tell everyone with any purchase..... "everything is overpriced, and you get what you pay for" so spend as much as you possibly can for the highest quality you can afford. This includes buying used, might get a $6,000 item for $2,500.

On the flip side- If you can't afford it, buy the best for what you can afford and get creative with your brewing methods. Be happy that you can still pull shots and more emportantly, that you enjoy the finer things in life...PRICELESS!

NO KIDS
NO CREDIT DEBT (aside from mortgage)
NO NEW IPHONE EVERY YEAR

I'm proud to have money to spend on things I enjoy. Pianos, Telescopes, Amouage Colognes, Traveling, espresso equipment. I work hard for it and would not feel bad in the slightest bit posting pictures of my $15,000 espresso machine. I'm not rich but I manage my money and lifestyle to fit my needs and desires.

Be proud of your $100,000 espresso setup, value is perceived in the eye of the beholder.

Be proud of your $150 espresso setup, it's not about the machine, it's about the journey of life...with espresso. And you might pull better shots than Johnny Millionare with it.

Life is not about money or who has more. If that bothers you, you will never find meaning or happiness.

Grind
Brew
Be Happy

Amen to that coffee brother!!

Well said, Assaf!

Lots of great points being made in response of "has espresso become a hobby for the rich?" That has been answered very eloquently by Assaf and others as "no" and I've not heard any other convincing argument to the contrary. ...Well, no more richer than it's always been. Fact is, the overwhelming majority of the world would consider anything over $50usd, just to make a cup of coffee, rich. For the people complaining, ahem, observing the rich here, what's your rig worth? $5000? $2500? $1000? Prob a bare minimum of $800 to make a cup of coffee. My buddy in Miami, making the best cafecitos in the city out of his moka pot would accuse all of us of being rich. Calling out someone on this forum for overspending is like Leno telling Seinfeld he's got too many Porsches.

In racing, the best advice I got was to get an underpowered car to learn to the lines of a track. Worst case, a novice can die trying to get around a track in a 700hp Z06. At a minimum, its much harder to learn entry and exit of an apex with a car that powerful. In espresso, what's the worse that can happen if a newbie gets pro grade equipment? Other than upsetting old curmudgeons on Internet forums? Can they not learn proper technique on a Slayer/ek43 any less so than a Silvia/rocky combo?

I've had a breville for 10 years pulling shots out of a pressurized portafilter and pre ground beans. Didn't learn a darn thing other than that sucked.

Rich or not, we all benefit when people have the passion for and are willing to spend money on home espresso setups. Where there is money and a demand, there is typically incentive for innovation, which then finds its way into equipment at all price levels.

We've seen a lot of improvements and advancements over the past few years in the high end (Single Dose Grinders, Pressure Profiling, etc), but we've also seen these innovations make their way to "relatively" lower end equipment (e.g. Niche, Decent), and investments from companies such as Baratza and Breville to make espresso accessible to the mass market.

Regardless of how you feel about this topic, realize that every home espresso hobbiest benefits when there is a hunger and demand for more and better, and that demand is most easily measured by producers through the money that people are willing to spend on the hobby.

AssafL wrote:Machines are better and cheaper. And better made (even the Italian made ones). Nespresso did all of us a favor by killing the low, underdelivering level of the hobby. (The Mr Coffee machines).
So no; the hobby is as inexpensive as it ever has been and more. What we are seeing is the seperation of the hobby into a "hi-end" bling segment and the old hobby-pro segment. Segmentation

Unless I am misunderstanding your main point, I have to disagree with you. I have been entirely immersed in this hobby for at least 23 years. And also joined Alt.Coffee in the late 1990s (when Jim Schulman; Greg Scace; Alan Frew; Barry Jarret; etc. were the main posters).

There were fewer "prosumer" and commercial machines available at that time (compared to nowadays), and they were significantly less expensive than today's prices.

EDIT TO SAY - this is a hobby for the "rich", as in rich at heart.