The goal is great TASTING espresso, not great LOOKING espresso - Page 3

Want to talk espresso but not sure which forum? If so, this is the right one.
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RegulatorJohnson

#21: Post by RegulatorJohnson »

JR_Germantown wrote:Great way to look at it, and I have my answers:

To keep my wall clean?!
To keep that hot coffee out of my eyes?!

Jack
you edited out my quote where i said "other than taste".

these can also be solved with your technique. i can pull shots all day with the naked PF and not get coffee in my eye.

jon
2012 BGA SW region rep. Roaster@cognoscenti LA

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another_jim
Team HB

#22: Post by another_jim »

RegulatorJohnson wrote:
remove the word "shot" and replace it with any other food item.

is this why at most restaurants they just toss the food onto the plate without a care?
"Sausage and legislation are best made out of sight" -- Kaiser Bill

The pour of the espresso is production, not presentation. In some of the newer restaurants, there's enough sweetness and light in the kitchen to have it out in the open; but if guests saw most traditional kitchens, they'd be calling in the riot squad.
Jim Schulman

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HB (original poster)
Admin

#23: Post by HB (original poster) »

RegulatorJohnson wrote:BTW. i was showing the pic to show my distribution progression based on "no toucha anything". i didnt say hey look how delicious this shot looks. Dan said he could tell more about the shot later in the extraction so i put up the other pics.
I share Andy's frustration with the emphasis on visuals, but I understand your point was to demonstrate that your "no fuss" distribution can produce even extractions. A couple photographs does convey that message better than textual description.
Dan Kehn

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RegulatorJohnson

#24: Post by RegulatorJohnson »

another_jim wrote:The pour of the espresso is production, not presentation. In some of the newer restaurants, there's enough sweetness and light in the kitchen to have it out in the open; but if guests saw most traditional kitchens, they'd be calling in the riot squad.
i drink 95.25794% of the shots that get made around here in my own personal home kitchen. for me the pour is part of the process and also part of the presentation.

think about in the grinders vs kony thread instead of "shot #1 6.5 points" , "shot #2 6.25 points" imagine if there were also pictures of these shots? it would make a better, more visually stimulating website and a better more informative presentation. i think there is a lot to learn from observation and actually looking at what you are doing. actually being able to see what you want to look at, really helps when you look at something.

its a tool to help with technique, this tool helps you have a visual representation of your progress, whether its distribution, channeling, or otherwise. with a bottomless, its easy to know if you messed up. using this tool helps you progress, this progression makes the result taste better.

that shot above would have tasted great with or without the bottom of the PF there. i would have been satisfied with making a great cup either way.

jon
2012 BGA SW region rep. Roaster@cognoscenti LA

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RegulatorJohnson

#25: Post by RegulatorJohnson »

HB wrote:I share Andy's frustration with the emphasis on visuals, but I understand your point was to demonstrate that your "no fuss" distribution can produce even extractions. A couple photographs does convey that message better than textual description.
i am frustrated because it seems fairly short sighted to say "i only want to discuss the taste of the espresso that is it, no pictures." this internet thing is a visual medium. humans have eyes to look at things. we are visual creatures, lets choose to not use one of our senses. my frustration comes from the realization that some people have a narrower view of the world than i do. everyone experiences things differently.

i am frustrated because i feel labeled as someone that wants to make cool pictures, not great espresso.

i am frustrated because it seems like these 2 items need to be mutually exclusive "taste and appearance". just because a shot looks great from a naked PF doesn't mean its gong to taste great, it doesn't mean its going to taste of crap either.

i want to enjoy coffee and espresso as much as i can from as many different angles as i can discover. i want to share my experiences, sometimes you need a photo.

why don't you guys come over for some coffee? i promise to not force you to look at it until its in the cup. :D

jon
2012 BGA SW region rep. Roaster@cognoscenti LA

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Psyd

#26: Post by Psyd »

AndyS wrote:That's pretty much the point that Jim and I are disputing. In the range of bottomless shots that vary from "mediocre looking" to "fantastic looking," I've found NO correlation to taste. During some espresso sessions I keep score, and it's been no more likely than 50:50 that the fantastic looking shots taste better than the mediocre looking shots.

IOW, in my humble experience, the obsession with the look of a shot is an unfortunate distraction.

(Obviously, grossly channeled or grotesque shots do NOT taste good).
I think that that was the point that I was making, that while good looking shots don't necessarily mean that they are great tasting shots, it's a good indicator, and it's pretty much the only way to show how a technique changes the cup.
"If you do this, it changes this, and it looks like this so you can tell that it is changing."
Which is exactly what RJ was doing with these images, i.e., "If you do the no cuss pull-and-go technique, it can be a great way to get an even distribution (shown by the even beading) without a bunch of gyrations over your PF holder."

It's the grossly channeled shots that started the naked PF as a diagnostic tool. A visual diagnostic tool. It stands to reason that certain visual indicators will diagnose problems of the taste of the espresso that were hidden' in the 'pants of a standard PF holder. It's not necessarily the beauty of the shot, but the beauty of the lack of any of the indicators of bad espresso that one looks for in the naked.
"It's the spaces between the notes, man" Some guy named Claude
Espresso Sniper
One Shot, One Kill

LMWDP #175

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jesawdy

#27: Post by jesawdy »

RegulatorJohnson wrote:i am frustrated because i feel labeled as someone that wants to make cool pictures, not great espresso.

i am frustrated because it seems like these 2 items need to be mutually exclusive "taste and appearance". just because a shot looks great from a naked PF doesn't mean its gong to taste great, it doesn't mean its going to taste of crap either.

i want to enjoy coffee and espresso as much as i can from as many different angles as i can discover. i want to share my experiences, sometimes you need a photo.

why don't you guys come over for some coffee? i promise to not force you to look at it until its in the cup. :D
Jon-

Don't take it as a personal attack, you are not being singled out and the point of this thread is to have a discussion. The point is, the beautiful naked pour may not be the end all, be all to a good tasting espresso.

I agree with your points regarding presentation and food... it can be a big part of the whole experience. Whether it sets your tastebuds to be "wowed" or disappointed however, may be a point to argue.

I'd reckon that I drink 99.9% of my shots.... nothing much hitting the sink here (it's not my skillz, I'm a tightwad :roll: ). It can make for the occasional surprise. I think most "sinkshots" ought to be sampled (others that are more refined or experienced may choose to disagree). You may be pleasantly surprised, or your may just confirm the mediocrity or repulsiveness of the unsightly or "non-conforming" pour.

Just this AM I had a very fast pour from 14g of Coffee Klatch's house espresso... the volume was fine (but on the high side for my usual pour, every bit of 2-2.5 ounces), and ran a maximum of 20 seconds if not less. While lacking in mouthfeel, the espresso was still quite tasty, heavy on the chocolates but well balanced, a balance that I tend to associate with single shots.

If I'm ever in Salt Lake again, I'll be sure to look you up!
Jeff Sawdy

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John P

#28: Post by John P »

I thought the pics were awesome! :wink:

On a serious note: I'm not really sold on the bottomless PF. It IS great as a diagnostic tool, but seems to be much more applicable for home use than for use in a professional environment. If you narrow down all the top caffe in North America, the number using bottomless PF as their SOP would be minuscule.

Correctly prepared food should be a palette for the eyes. Balance of flavor, symmetry of presentation, simple, clean, but undeniable exciting. The same can be said for espresso. Now it is difficult for the average home-user to tell how a shot will taste by eye-balling it, but any dedicated home-user or professional will learn the subtleties of a particular blend if they spend enough time with it. Of course we'd all rather be tasting than secretly peeking at voyeuristic espresso pics, but that sense of "ahh... I can imagine that" is often a nice touch to an otherwise crazy day. Besides, a sublime picture of a perfect pour is better than a stick in the eye. Isn't it?
John Piquet
Salt Lake City, UT
caffedbolla.com

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RegulatorJohnson

#29: Post by RegulatorJohnson »

John P wrote:I thought the pics were awesome! :wink:
BTW... if anyone wants to taste how FN delicious that shot was. contact john P he roasted it, its his mountain mambo espresso. http://www.caffedbolla.com get some today.

dont hesitate, there is not much to go around, hopefully there is enough left for me. :wink:

jon
2012 BGA SW region rep. Roaster@cognoscenti LA

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DC

#30: Post by DC »

I tend to share the sentiments of regulator and psyd in this thread, and although I do cringe at my early obsessions with visuals the fact remains that bottomless pfs are a useful tool.

I agree that not every gorgeous looking shot will taste great - but I don't believe I have ever had a good tasting coffee that looked bad coming out of the basket, and I taste them all. I think I'd be kidding myself if I said a dodgy looking shot tasted amazing because the visual cues do translate (to a point) into what you taste in the cup.

A bottomless pf will tell you where you're going wrong if you are, and if you're not then as Regulator says it's just using another sense to appreciate a different aspect of espresso, surely?! If it looks great and tastes great surely that is a more fulfilling experience of coffee than tasting great alone (as per the food argument earlier)

I get the feeling reading this thread that some people have a 'been there, done that' attitude to the bottomless pf thing, and no longer feel it's 'cool' resulting in much rolling of their eyes when they come across more espresso photos/videos.

I don't think the emphasis on taste was ever lost, unless people really do just make espresso for photography's sake.
Dave