Disillusioned with "precision" baskets (a bit of a rant) - Page 4

#31: Post by **coyote-1** » February 7th, 2023, 5:43 pm

Capuchin Monk wrote:Marketeers only care about 1 thing, sales. They will do it even if it means BS-ing. Consumers need to be skeptical of ads and reviews especially when there is no double blind test involved.

The other component is trend-mongering. And forums like this are great for that process. You see other folks spending on this, spending on that... and it's always called an upgrade. It must be, right? How could spending money be counterproductive to the process of improving your espresso? How could having the machine everyone else lusts for be bad? How could having the acclaimed grinder of the year be a negative? How could having hundred$, or even thousand$, invested in tampers and screens and knock boxes be harmful?

But it is. Or can be.

It's such a classic error. A Ferrari in the hands of a bad driver is a wreck waiting to happen. A tableful of gizmos, no matter how pricey and promising, can lead to frustration.

Lewis Hamilton driving your Kia will almost certainly beat you driving his Mercedes. That is, unless you happen to be Max Verstappen.

So definitely put aside all the fancy gizmos for awhile. Put the stock screen back on the machine, get the stock basket.... and get down to the basics. Make sure the machine is getting 9 bar or so. Get a bag of simple espresso blend. And start making good espresso.

THIS IS NOT THAT DIFFICULT.

February 7th, 2023, 11:17 pm

Is the too fine grinding can cause channeling discussion worth its own thread? I'm with Jim on the topic, yet the idea exists in many info articles on somewhat reputable resources. A web search turns up many results making this claim.

In my experience, there was a place where very fine grinding correlated to frequent and gross channeling problems. It frustrated dialing in new equipment because it made for faster shots despite finer grinding. It felt counterintuitive to get better results while coarsening the grind. The fault, however, was other deficiencies in prep. It was more likely under the more extreme demands caused by high flow baskets. Pre-wetting and lower pressure brewing helped.

February 8th, 2023, 2:01 am

coyote-1 wrote:THIS IS NOT THAT DIFFICULT.

Temptation, one of the thing that humans have been struggling to control since the beginning human race.

Songs have been written about it. If it wasn't that difficult, there won't be suckers in the world anymore.

February 8th, 2023, 9:05 am

Ahhh, so all those folks in those love songs have really been in search of a better, ahem.... puck?

#35: Post by **cafeIKE** » February 8th, 2023, 10:13 am

iyayy wrote:random grinds + constant holes = random results.
random grinds + random holes = even more random results.
if random.= 5, and constant = 1..
i'll take my 1 out of 5*1 chances of getting good coffee (sometimes) instead of 1 out 5*5 chances (high likelyness of constantly poor coffee).

The math is flawed. The 'randomness' of modern baskets is a tiny percentage of the randomness of ground coffee. Add in the randomness of coffee itself and the detectability approaches zero all other basket parameters being equal.

#36: Post by **cafeIKE** » February 8th, 2023, 10:24 am

zefkir wrote:Once you have a decent wdt routine with 0.4 mm needles or under, high pressure jet are mostly gone.

Never see high pressure jets and don't WDT.

Occasional high pressure jets disappeared when I upgraded to the La Cimbali Max Hybrid - long since gone because it was too blinking noisy. With the Niche, I think there have been about one a year. No WDT ever.

Worst high pressure jet experience was during the Tamper Road Show and the conical faced Radical Pro.

#37: Post by **CSME9** » February 8th, 2023, 11:06 am

I have good luck with an inexpensive $5 EPHQ basket, standard shower screen. Grind, finger level, tap, tamp, pull shot and enjoy

#38: Post by **zefkir** » February 8th, 2023, 11:38 am

cafeIKE wrote:Never see high pressure jets and don't WDT.

Occasional high pressure jets disappeared when I upgraded to the La Cimbali Max Hybrid - long since gone because it was too blinking noisy. With the Niche, I think there have been about one a year. No WDT ever.

Worst high pressure jet experience was during the Tamper Road Show and the conical faced Radical Pro.

Two main causes for spurts.

- puck unevenness, this is what wdt fixes without needing to have a good handle on a technique that helps deal with puck uniformity, it can be hard to learn how to side tap in a way that removes the non uniformity from the mound. There was other techniques that work too, but wdt is one that doesn't require skill or practice, just knowing how to do it. As a bonus, it'll remove clumping from clumpy grinders.

- particle size related short duration spurts, particles the right size can partially block a hole in a basket during a shot deviating the liquid into an unpredictable direction. Usually, those are short duration spurts that will stop when the offending particle gets flushed inside the cup. Those are the result from matching the grind size with the basket's hole size. If you have basket with a consistent hol size and your shot times have you grind at a size where nothing gets into the holes, or get flushed immediately away, then those don't happen either. Having said that, those have no effect on taste.

If you've landed on an area where you never see spurting, good for you, but don't assume that anyone lands in that area, because they have different preferences in terms of grinders, of roast levels, of shot durations...

February 8th, 2023, 1:00 pm

coyote-1 wrote:Ahhh, so all those folks in those love songs have really been in search of a better, ahem.... puck?

Some, if they pull espresso. Even the tea drinkers have their own search for x, y, z.

cafeIKE wrote:high pressure jet

Do you mean spritzer? I've seen many posts on that on this forum.

#40: Post by **cafeIKE** » February 9th, 2023, 11:49 am

zefkir wrote: Two main causes for spurts.

- puck unevenness, this is what wdt fixes without needing to have a good handle on a technique that helps deal with puck uniformity, it can be hard to learn how to side tap in a way that removes the non uniformity from the mound. There was other techniques that work too, but wdt is one that doesn't require skill or practice, just knowing how to do it. As a bonus, it'll remove clumping from clumpy grinders.

Spurts are caused by the wrong combination of grind, coffee, basket, headspace, tamper face and distribution. It's entirely possible to WDT and still have spurts. As far as removing ephemeral clumps, it trades clumps for furrows.

The home espresso space has degenerated into gadgets and falderal as bandaids for poor equipment and coffee fueled by bloviators with a video camera.