Disillusioned with "precision" baskets (a bit of a rant) - Page 3

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another_jim
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#21: Post by another_jim »

zefkir wrote:Channeling as you grind finer is an expected phenomenon.
We don't seem to be on the same planet.

Choking and no flow at all is expected when you grind very fine. A little less fine, and you have a long dwell time that soaks the puck and closes any fissures. Yes, the flow is so slow that it is uneven, something that has zero effect on the taste. Channeling is when you see high pressure jets created by faults in the puck.

If you're from planet espresso porn, and think anything that isn't a you tube shot is channeling, my condolences. Your shots are probably too coarsely ground and under extracted. But, hey; looking good is better than feeling good.
Jim Schulman

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Jeff
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#22: Post by Jeff »

Matching the choice of basket to the coffee, dose, and extraction style are important. I haven't pulled Espresso Vivace's coffees in a long time, but my recollection of them is that they are relatively dark, classic espresso roasts. My recollection is that these coffees with typical extraction approaches seem to do better with more classic basket shapes and perforation, such as a moderate or significant taper and reduced holes. The highly tapered "Faema-style" double baskets (14 g) are worlds away from the typical VST basket.

"Back in the day", many of the baskets were just stamped and sometimes the holes were very visibly uneven across the bottom. I recall buying twosies of baskets in case one was stamped off center or with fat holes on one side and barely any on the other. Now there are, from what I understand, two major manufacturers of "precision" baskets*, IMS and the ODM that produces VST and others. Major machine manufacturers seem to be shipping baskets from one of those sources or similar, rather than the try-your-luck ones. "Precision" of a decade or two ago is now "normal" for today.

I'd pick a basket because it works with your coffee, machine, and tastes.

After trying a handful of them on my E61 and Compak K10 WBC grinder, I found that some worked well for me with darker roasts, some better with the filter roasts of that era. As coffees, my tastes, and my gear changed, so did my preferences in baskets. Amusingly, one of those horrid, stamped baskets that comes "free" with a cheap portfilter turns out to be great for "sprovers".


* Leaving out the latest in baskets that cost more than a good hand grinder.

Mat-O-Matic
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#23: Post by Mat-O-Matic »

Point of clarity - high flow baskets don't 'like light roasts.' It's the other way around: light roasts demand high flow baskets. They need high extraction to become sweet. This leads to high doses and fine grinding, which slows the flow. High flow baskets balance against that to bring the other two variables back to order.

Espresso Vivace Dolce--unless something has changed--is not at all a light roast. An upgraded basket makes sense, but the high flow VSTs and competition IMS/BaristaPros not so much. They're actually working against your needs. As Jim suggested, a slightly conical, finer-holed basket would allow flexibility in updosing, and offer a ridgeless design that won't impede your tamper. Here's some fairly recent advice on pulling Vivace Dolce:
Espresso Vivace Dolce

Other than your tamp problem, the OEM basket probably is fine. They last forever. I previously had an Elektra A3 from '98, and the original basket with that was the easiest /most consistent for medium or darker coffees. Still is and it's 25 years old.

Also, skip the OCD. It's not helping.
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Derryisreal (original poster)
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#24: Post by Derryisreal (original poster) »

Mat-O-Matic wrote:
Also, skip the OCD. It's not helping.
I think you might be right, I used to only use the OCD as a tamper (terrible practice, thanks Marc from WLL) and was getting channeling. Ever since I minimised its depth and combined it with the tamper, my pulls improved dramatically. At this point I am not sure if the OCD is doing anything useful.
Thanks for your input, Mat, very much appreciated!
Light roasts are to me what garlic is to vampires.

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#25: Post by Mat-O-Matic »

Lol. Yes, the old distribute-instead-of-tamp got me, too. Sounded nice--and very light tamps can be useful--but is pretty well debunked now. The pucks need pressure to collapse air pockets throughout. Distributors only smooth the top surface. FWIW, it wasn't only WLL. Some of the Clive videos suggested it, too.
LMWDP #716: Spring comes, and the grass grows by itself.

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Derryisreal (original poster)
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#26: Post by Derryisreal (original poster) »

another_jim wrote:Channeling is when you see high pressure jets created by faults in the puck.
I don't have any of that happening, thankfully.
Light roasts are to me what garlic is to vampires.

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#27: Post by Milligan »

Capuchin Monk wrote:Should be fine.
Since I don't have a microscope in my house to tell me what basket to pick, I simply go by taste :mrgreen:

zefkir
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#28: Post by zefkir »

another_jim wrote:We don't seem to be on the same planet.

Choking and no flow at all is expected when you grind very fine. A little less fine, and you have a long dwell time that soaks the puck and closes any fissures. Yes, the flow is so slow that it is uneven, something that has zero effect on the taste. Channeling is when you see high pressure jets created by faults in the puck.

If you're from planet espresso porn, and think anything that isn't a you tube shot is channeling, my condolences. Your shots are probably too coarsely ground and under extracted. But, hey; video.
Once you have a decent wdt routine with 0.4 mm needles or under, high pressure jet are mostly gone, and the remaining ones are likely just a fine stuck in a basket hole making a mess of the flow just at the exit hole. It is a non issue beyond the need to wipe the nearby surfaces, a single or two blocked holes cannot be tasted.

There is no channel inside the puck, rather channeling is when there are low/no flow paths and paths through which most of the liquid flows, those are are channels.

As far as under-extraction goes, could you define what that word means, I dial to taste and I do like what I get, so it is extracted to taste so to speak of.

And for the extraction yield itself (as measured), it will vary quite a bit depending on the gear used.

Sidenote: high flow baskets, especially the IMS variant with its hydrophobic coating don't usually pull shots that look as nice as their low flow counterpart, this is far from the first time I've heard it. They just take a finer grind to achieve the same shot duration because the basket itself adds little resistance to the flow of liquid through compared to a low flow basket. And with the finer grind, the extraction is more front loaded and everything happens faster. Instead of achieving for example 20% EY at 1:2 in 30s with a slow flow basket, it'll do 20% EY at 1:1.7 at 24s with a fast flow basket. Hence if you push a slow flow basket to 1:2 in 30s, the tail end of the shot will look ugly as hell.

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another_jim
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#29: Post by another_jim »

zefkir wrote:There is no channel inside the puck, rather channeling is when there are low/no flow paths and paths through which most of the liquid flows, those are are channels.
Take a very fine ground puck, preinfuse it till you see the first drops, end the shot, and see if the puck is evenly or unevenly soaked. The degree of soaking rises with the fineness of the grind.
Jim Schulman

zefkir
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#30: Post by zefkir replying to another_jim »

I'm just not sure what this is supposed to show, I've pulled shots with extremely fine grounds, and extremely high extraction and even too, I'm also very careful with my prep and have a good preinfusion scheme.

But as far as we know, the "clogged flow regime" does happen with finer and finer grinds even if you can mitigate it various ways.