You can try De Mello cafe at 2489 Yonge St., across from Castlefield Ave. I was seeking a medium roast coffee bean earlier this summer that I wanted to enjoy at home and visited De Mello. I tried a double espresso shot using their blend, Dancing Goats. The baristas took care when preparing the shot which was a factor in its taste. I can tell you personally that it had a good balance of characteristics in that cup and I certainly tasted a sweet note that, for me, offset the acidity. Give it a try.

Thanks so much! Will try

I have had some espresso shots at one of my favorite (pre-covid) coffee shops. Those were devoid of the harsh notes I would get on my home setup, to the point I would describe to people as being almost like a different drink. Those shots became my personal reference point for how sweet an espresso could be.

Now that I have read more and reflected more on those shots, my suspicion is those may have been pulled on flat burrs at a longer brew ratio (versus my tight, 18:30 ristretto ratio on home conical burrs). Once I get my flat burr setup up and running, I want to chase after that and see if I can get closer to it at home.

Take a listen to Tim Wendelboes poscast episode 9 and 10 with Morten Munchow on sensory evaluation of coffee, where they discuss perceived flavors of coffee.

He found Kenyan coffee perceived more acidic than south american, yet the south american had more actual acidity when measured).

Interesting topic. I've wondered this myself. I followed the links presented above. They lead to more discussion and more links, without any solid explanation at the end of the chain. After looking at all that, I've come to the following conclusion based on my own experience:

1. "Sweet" espresso means not bitter and not sour.
2. It means enjoyable without sugar.
3. It means being able to discern the subtle flavors
4. It does not mean sweet as in sugary sweet.

This topic reminds me of sail boats. Some are advertised as "lightning fast". Once you get to know sailing...the difference between a 'fast' boat and a 'slow' boat is about 1 to 2 knots. That could be the difference between winning and losing a race. But it terms of getting somewhere...they're slow.

I've just got to this thread, and am surprised that nobody has pointed out the obvious -- if you drink sodas or eat many prepackaged foods, your perception of sweetness is screwed. You will never taste the sweetness in anything natural since you've been doing the equivalent to your taste to what standing next to jackhammer would do to your ears.

I have no idea if this applies to the OP or any of the other people having a hard time tasting sweetness in coffee; but if it does; they need to go cold turkey on sodas and packaged foods with added sugars or sweeteners. Otherwise, it's not just their coffee that's spoilt, but their entire sense of taste.

another_jim wrote:if you drink sodas or eat many prepackaged foods, your perception of sweetness is screwed. You will never taste the sweetness in anything natural since you've been doing the equivalent to your taste to what standing next to jackhammer would do to your ears.

Well, I feel personally attacked

I have a wicked sweet tooth and eat quite a bit of complete garbage candies (looking forward to some Hot Tamales tonight), but I still perceive many fruitier naturals as sweet. I'm sure there's people out there drinking more soda than me and eating sweeter, more trash candies (how are candy corns still in production btw?), but my candy consumption is pretty impressive, if I do say so myself. I'll add that if I eat something trashy-sweet before drinking coffee, my experience of the coffee is always considerably worse.

baldheadracing wrote:image

Also, a little harder to follow is "Coffee Flavor Chemistry," Ivon Flament. John Wiley & Sons, 2002, and the classic "Coffee
Volume 1: Chemistry," edited by R.J. Clarke, Elsevier 1985

That exhausts my library.

I wonder a bit about this chart, especially since it's apparently based on data from 1995. For one thing just how roasted was "roasted" in this case? We know that roast level and even profile can make a big difference in perceived sweetness. Another thing that caught my eye: the chart seems to indicate not all the water has necessarily been driven off by the roasting process, and yet all the sugar has? That feels unlikely to me. I'm not claiming any expertise here, maybe someone smarter than me has an explanation. I'd love to see similar data on a coffee and roast profile that has been verified as "sweet".

On the "people eat too much sugar" note, I have quite the sweet tooth, but I still appreciate sweetness in coffee. It's obviously a different level of sweetness than candy or anything with lots of added sugar. And I do acknowledge that I definitely appreciate coffee less if I've had something overly sweet too recently.

lancealot wrote:My hunch says that this is a gestalt thing. Taken together, there is a puzzling manifold of sensations that we have been calling sweet and we currently have no better sensory vocabulary to describe.

We each can only speak about our own perceptions. I taste something that is clearly, undeniably, unambiguously sweet.

These things are swirling around my head regarding the topic of sweetness in coffee:

• Humans have an evolutionary drive to pursue sweetness.

• This society has been obsessed with sweetness and sugar for a long time.

• Oversaturated specialty coffee market filled with roasters and other stakeholders who will not survive unless they sell coffee or services. Lots of talk about sweetness from these people.

• Hobbyists and enthusiasts have paid the steep cost of entry to be in this game. Many of them taste the sweetness too.

• The newbies seem to only taste bitter and sour.

I have to admit that sometimes I have coffee that might taste sweet. The cynic in me sees the above points that wonders if I have been brainwashed by all the talking heads. Evaluating my perceptions more and assuming the mood of doubt, the coffees I have had that may be called sweet are light roasted, have a fruity or floral aroma and a very, very faint acidity that does not taste acidic. It stimulates my salivary glands, but does not have a punchy juiciness. My hunch says that this is a gestalt thing. Taken together, there is a puzzling manifold of sensations that we have been calling sweet and we currently have no better sensory vocabulary to describe.
My $.02. Take it for what it is worth