"A better way to grind coffee" from Washington Post - "Moisture-controlled triboelectrification during coffee grinding" - Page 8

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Emc2
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#71: Post by Emc2 »

Interesting results from the study with the Autocomb. The Hendon study has many flaws and I don't think it has fully explored the effects of RDT. I have been experimenting with the 078S and the results are surprising. There seems to be an ideal amount of water for RDT depending on the grinder and coffee.

[youtube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC2OmQ74CS0[/youtube]

chendon
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#72: Post by chendon »

yakster wrote:I became aware of a scientific paper regarding moisture and static during grinding: "Moisture-controlled triboelectrification during coffee grinding." I haven't had time to read this, but it should make for an interesting read.

https://www.cell.com/matter/fulltext/S2 ... 23)00568-4

They do mention the Ross Droplet Technique in the paper but appear to stop short of crediting David Ross specifically.

Previous closed thread for reference: Ross Droplet Technique-Eliminating Grinder Static
We cited you, instead. The reason we didn't cite David Ross specifically is that we could not find a reliable primary source that we could refer to. Also, it's not clear that David Ross pioneered the technique - he may have just popularized it. The best thing to do was to cite the naming convention and a source I trusted (your post you cited here).

Thanks for reading it!

chendon
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#73: Post by chendon »

yakster wrote:The don't appear to mention the use of ion generators / ionizers like the Acaia Ion Beam in the paper. I'm a bit surprised.

https://arxiv.org/abs/2312.03103

chendon
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#74: Post by chendon »

erik82 wrote:They did it terribly wrong. Comparing a shot with a WDT tool and no RDT with a shot with RDT and no WDT is as unscientific as it can get. You're changing multiple variables and than making conclusions about it. They should've known better and lost a lot of credibility in my eyes by doing this. This is pure sales and there's nothing useful in it.
I agree with this comment, and that is all I will say on the matter :)

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baldheadracing
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#75: Post by baldheadracing replying to chendon »

:lol:

Good plan. On this forum, I have given up 'debating' folks on statistics, experimental design, and, as of this evening, thermodynamics.
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erik82
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#76: Post by erik82 »

I also disagreed with Hendon on roughly the same terms a couple of pages ago :wink: . I think he also doesn't agree with that :mrgreen: .

Emc2
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#77: Post by Emc2 »

chendon wrote:I agree with this comment, and that is all I will say on the matter :)
Didn't know you were on this forum!

From my own experience, RDT can both positively or negatively impact flavours. But WDT+RDT produces better flavours when compared to RDT alone.

The effects of RDT are independent of WDT. And it varies depending on the amount of water, burr and roast colour. These variables determine whether the effects of RDT are positive or negative.

The effect on extraction time is also dependent on these variables.

Why is it that when the beans are left to soak, the effect of RDT on extraction time is reversed? (if it had previously increased it)

It seems to me that once the water is absorbed by the beans, the effects are lost. Therefore it's the water on the surface of the bean that is important. This surface water modulates the interaction between the coffee beans and the burr and influences the way the beans break.

Perhaps something to explore in your next study :)

David R.
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#78: Post by David R. »

chendon wrote:The reason we didn't cite David Ross specifically is that we could not find a reliable primary source that we could refer to. Also, it's not clear that David Ross pioneered the technique - he may have just popularized it.
I recommended it on Usenet groups. I don't know if they count as reliable. Perhaps I should post some of the old threads from alt.coffee here on Home Barista; I still have access to them. (Dan, if you're reading this, let me know.)

It isn't something I ever thought of as "pioneering". It is something I started doing when I lived in Minnesota, stopped doing when I moved to Oregon, and then when I became active on the coffee groups around the turn of the millenium I would say "do this" when people asked for grinder help. Many years later Marshall Fuss contacted me to tell me about AndyTom's post here, and the consequent naming convention. (I certainly never called it the RDT when I was recommending it, good grief.)

The Usenet groups (alt.coffee, rec.food.drink.coffee, etc) were full of very curious people, many of us in academics, who liked coffee, liked experimenting with coffee, and had some experience with doing careful analysis; the groups were the birthplace of many excellent coffee ideas that have become commonplace. I don't think any of us cared very much about getting credit for these ideas, we just wanted to brew the best coffee we could with the equipment available to us.
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TomC
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#79: Post by TomC »

i'm the one who coined the name RDT and I wanted David to be the one highlighted and credited in the naming of it. I was in the middle of the original HG-One Grinder review and was hindered by the severe static retention. Andy Schecter saw my misery and reached out to me privately giving me the solution, from the old Alt-Coffee days apparently long forgotten. I chose to name it after David Ross because he deserved the credit more than Andy or I, obviously, and because I wanted to shorten the description for ease of sharing from "drip some water off the back of a spoon handle" into something easily stated, more succinct similar to WDT, because I knew for certain it would be useful and catch on.

My good friend and fellow HB'er Yakster had the good sense to start a new discussion about this whole topic separate from the HG-One Grinder thread and I reached out to him with the new name I'd given the procedure.

Ross Droplet Technique-Eliminating Grinder Static
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chendon
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#80: Post by chendon »

David, we should connect some time. I'd love to show you what we are up to these days.