Ken Fox wrote:Fortunately, the great majority of the posts I've read in this thread have stayed as discussions of ideas, not invective directed at individuals (i.e. me), and I think that is a good thing.

Ken, thanks for the reality check.

I'm glad that HB requires almost no moderator intervention; in fact, a thread has never been locked in the site's (admittedly short) history. I appreciate everyone's willingness to hear others out, even if the delivery of the message is a little abrasive. There's no formal policy of "sanctions" and I earnestly hope the site never needs them. The site's Guidelines for productive online discussion is the closest things to rules and the first recommendation applies to this thread: Be respectful - Treat others as you would have them treat you.

Nick wrote:For you to post a thread titled "Barista Competitions; Who Gives a Sh**" and then cry when you are (admittedly) attacked is the definition of "troll." It was clear, by your VERY FIRST PHRASE in this thread that your intention was to be provocative.

Correction. Ken is a curmudgeon, not a troll. They are easily confused for one another.

(we now return to regularly scheduled programming already in progress...)

While sitting in on PF podcast #50, John Hornall stated that he believed Bronwen Serna was the greatest promotional tool that happened to Hines Public Market Coffee. I interpreted his statement to mean that because she worked her ass off and became the USBC champion, consumers sought her out. In doing so, the consumer found him or herself at Hines. I think this promotes coffee because it gave that shop the opportunity to present quality coffee which was hopefully recognized by the consumer as a new standard of what coffee could and should be.

Let's cut the average coffee consumer out of the equation since I'm expecting an argument that the competitions aren't a spectator sport, and people outside the professional coffee community aren't aware and don't give a sh** about the comps. Fine. The pro baristas DO pay attention to what's happening in competition, and they seek out the winning barista to check out their shop, coffee, technique, etc. so it can be applied at their shop with hopes of offering the best possible experience to their customer.

When the winning barista is asked what their espresso consists of, the green buyer and roaster wants their name in the answer. I believe that plays a role in pursuit of quality green sourcing and roasting.

If an espresso machine company says they don't care if their machine is sitting on that competition table, they are full of it. I'm sure that EVERY machine builder wants their machine on that table which in turn is continuously elevating machine technology and build quality.

I don't think the competitions have been or will be the sole factor in the elevation of quality coffee, but I do believe the competitions result in tangible effects which synergistically promote and benefit the specialty coffee industry.

Matthew Brinski

Though virtually unknown to this community I feel compelled to add my two cents to the ongoing dialogue. I have never personally participated in a barista competition, though some of my former co-workers have. According to Ken's original post, one of the key reasons for the competitions is that it raises the "wave" of good coffee, a premise that Ken apparently believes to be false. It is my humble opinion that the competitions have indeed done exactly that, and I credit a large part of my personal growth to the professionalism that I read and hear about coming from the competition floor. I've printed scoring sheets as examples to my staff, and directed them to sites (and podcasts) that describe in detail what the judges are looking for. I believe 100% that the excellence strived for in competition is useful towards raising the bar at our own shop, and I imagine that other operators feel similarly. On the other hand, I find it hard to imagine that anyone can honestly believe that the competitions don't serve this purpose, even when selecting cafes at random. There's a million cafes out there and averages are hard to move. Here's one cafe who's quality has gone up, partly due to forums like this, and the communities that are nutured at events like competitions.

Nick wrote:So in your first post, you claim that you have done your due diligence but have "seen no evidence" where others apparently have... then you whine to me that I apparently haven't done MY due diligence... sufficiently to see that you are a "useful" citizen of the bleeding-edge enthusiast community. Do you see how these things relate, Mr. Ken?

I don't know you Ken Fox. I don't know you at all. The people I listed, I've met. Maybe I've met you, but definitely nothing beyond a hello and a handshake. Those other folks, I've engaged in meaningful discourse, in addition to having read their words out there. I never said "Ken Fox; Who Gives a Sh1t about that guy." I simply didn't list you, and yet you felt compelled to point that out, obviously irked by the omission (which was not intentional). Again, if you don't see the hypocrisy... I dunno what to say.

For you to post a thread titled "Barista Competitions; Who Gives a Sh**" and then cry when you are (admittedly) attacked is the definition of "troll." It was clear, by your VERY FIRST PHRASE in this thread that your intention was to be provocative. You reap what you sow. Quick licking your paw. I, for one, feel no sympathy for you, and I doubt that anyone else does either.

With 2 minutes reflection after my afternoon bike ride, and reading your post, I have decided to not engage in an online pi**ing match with you, Nick. So, perhaps if you want one you can simply respond to your own post yourself.

I've had the pleasure of meeting in person many participants in online forums and many people who work in the industry. Often I have found people to be much different in person than I have thought they would be like from simply reading their online posts. I would hold out the hope that you might be different than I perceive you from your posts, as well.

ken

mikep wrote:How exactly could this be accomplished?

wish to hell I knew

Ken Fox wrote:With 2 minutes reflection after my afternoon bike ride, and reading your post, I have decided to not engage in an online pi**ing match with you, Nick. So, perhaps if you want one you can simply respond to your own post yourself.

Fascinating, responding to declare you won't respond...

Nick's hair is bigger in person.

The three main people that stirred desire to reality for us in striving for a quality shop before we opened were Dismas, Bronwen and David Schomer. Seeing that there WAS a USBC champ was pretty cool, and then that led to the nifty DVD put out by Zoka (awesome), Brownwen making Hines nationally known, etc. Knowing that there was something to aspire to, that someone was the best at this barista-ing, was cool.

Everyone wants to be the best, to say, "I can do that too," and so they check out the shop of the reigning champ, former champ, champ to be... And they learn something. That these phenomenal barista with their two arms and two legs can make fantastic drinks. "Hey I have two arms and two legs too..."
Those who care about making an impact notice everyone, and everything in the community that does, whether it's Mark Prince at Coffeegeek, Nick and Jay at Portafilter.net, everyone over at alt.coffee, the BGA, the SCAA, this board, the USBC, or the WBC it all makes a great impact.

I've noticed.

another_jim wrote:You never had the espresso at the SCAA conventions before there was a BGA booth? Drop around $750, go to the biggest coffee convention on earth, and nothing but wretched shots. Drop another $500, attend the espresso training workshops, and get taught how to produce 15 second gushers with mounds of stiff foam.

The BGA and barista competitions have had one simple effect on my everyday shot making. Four years ago, the coffee world, as I knew it, was a simple place. If you wanted the best espresso on the planet (BEP), you came to my place, or the homes of a few other amateurs. All of a sudden, there's there's these barista competitions and the BGA. At first I'm thinking, "yeah whatever, the bush leagues' world series." Then I taste some of these guys' shots, and I'm scrambling to keep up.

And what was the BEP four years ago? The on-line community had reached a plateau and wasn't going anywhere: Rockies and Silvias, home roast of DIY blends from SM, usually with way too much Monsooned Malabar, and the only cafe anyone talked about was Vivace. Our BEP wasn't bad; but even the Haikus About Cherry-Blossoms Society could boast of more variety.

That complacency was shared by the SCAA espresso people, hence the abysmal shots and training courses.

I'm not one to talk about causes. But things started to change very rapidly after Doug Zell and then other roasters and cafes reached out to the on-line community, and we responded. The pros were shocked, and complained very loudly, at the contempt in which they were held by us. Those of us who were in on it were equally shocked at how varied the specialty coffee world was, and what pains the top people were taking. The upshot is that the top quality rung of the SCAA has found that they could be successful by emphasizing and competing on quality. The on-line community isn't their only market by a long way, and they were doing quality long before they met us, but we are the vocal part providing most of the customer feedback. This odd sum is more than its parts. The lines of influence are hard to trace; but I'm convinced they exist. My coffee practice, and even more my standards, have improved dramatically since all this hit; and so have the standards at the top roasters and cafes.

The last four years have seen a "race for the top" when it comes to coffee quality. The BGA and barista competition are a part of this new landscape.

I would wonder how much of what you quote in the first paragraph is from firsthand knowledge, Jim, and how much is apocryphal. Do you honestly believe that four years ago people were paying $500 to attend a seminar at the SCAA that showed how to make 15 second gushers? I don't. While I doubt the SCAA was a great fount of wisdom on this topic, I sincerely doubt they were THAT bad, although I do believe there are people in the professional community who would attend such a seminar and come out of it saying that this was what they observed. I had some pretty bad espresso at the convention that was in Seattle, my recent experience drinking espresso at an SCAA event. There was good espresso at the BGA booth served by talented individuals, but my best espressos at the convention came from the Intelly booth.

As you point out, there have been recent improvements in espresso blends. I would credit people like Geoff Watts and others who have sourced top notch beans much more than I would the BGA. And none of this is to diminish the role of Baristas or the BGA, who are essential and provide a real service. I questioned the value of barista competitions, not baristas themselves.

My point was, and remains, however, that there is way too much focus on an artificial competition between a smallish clique of cafes, and way too little attention on expanding (greatly) the number of cafes that produce DRINKABLE shots. If I knew that I had a 30% chance of getting a decent espresso in a randomly chosen cafe, I'd take the chance on going in a lot more often than I do. Instead, the odds are considerably worse than that. If I knew that I could find a good espresso somewhere in San Diego when I go to visit family there, I'd drive 20 minutes on the freeway in search of it. Instead, a very likeable altie who took me to what he thought was among the best (or perhaps least worst) cafes in that metro area, was apologetic after the fact and indicated he'd tried almost everywhere there and they were all mediocre or much worse. Another altie and I, on a separate visit, went to another spoken of cafe in that city, and their drinks, although better, were barely drinkable.

For sure, a sparsely populated state such as my own is not going to be the easiest place to find good espresso. But San Diego? One of the larger metro areas in the USA? And there are many other large metro areas in N. America sporting no better coffee than one finds in San Diego.

I doubt that very many cafes in very many parts of the country or the world for that matter are going to be effected very much by barista competitions. At the very least the attempt should be made to expand whatever value there would be from them, so that there is at least a small possibility of receiving a decent drink at a randomly chosen independent cafe.

ken

terryz wrote:Sorry Ken, but I travel a fair bit as well. Maybe not to the far reaches of the world such as yourself, but a fair amount regardless. yes, barista competitions have made a difference, and they will continue to. France has crappy coffee no matter what, so you can't use that as an example

Ken, If you started this thread to create interesting dialog, I think you succeeded. I'm not good at debate, but I do think that I need to comment on this in particular. I have dedicated my career to the advancement of espresso coffee, and I feel strongly that as the years go by, we will see competitions as part of that advancement.

What I can tell you is that allot of this reminds me of comments by the professionals about the AC community just a few years back. You know what I'm talking about. Yet out of AC came Andy with PID control, and Greg Scace with real temperature measurement devices. As a whole I feel that the espresso community has united to create advancement, and to question any focus on this work is really not in the best interest of any of us.

Again, just my opinion, and I prolly wont follow up any rebuttal, but at least I'm letting you know. I'm busy working on some Barista Jam stuff, as well as training a Barista for the NWRBC

Terry, as both a customer and an admirer of your business, I appreciate what you have done for espresso enthusiasts, whether home based or commercial in nature. I wouldn't be interested in "rebutting" you, but rather I'd just want to point out that the barista competitions as currently existing do not, to me, appear to broaden the base of quality espresso served in cafes by anywhere as much as they encourage competition among the (already) top spots. I am pretty sure that if you went around to the commercial establishments who buy parts and equipment from you, you would find many that don't do that equipment justice. The real question for me is not how do we get Intelly to improve 2%, but rather how do we get the bottom half of your customers to start making decent drinks?

Best,

ken

OlywaDave wrote:
I too have held back on posting a response to this.

First of all. Ben... That is a really great thread and debate and pretty much on topic with this. However I could be wrong but when browsing that thread and the massive number of responses it seems to have a lot more respect in tone for the competitors and competitions than this one here started up with.

Ken... I have to say even in Seattle I think there is a noticeable and measurable difference. The reason I say "even Seattle", some might expect the most influence to be felt there from competitions and some might expect they were already there... which minus a few exceptions they weren't.

Remember back at SCAA Seattle when you, Jim, Dan and I did that small cafe tour? I thought it was fairly easy back then to pick 3 or 4 cafes that you MUST go visit. Now there are 3-4 times (if not more) as many quality cafes to choose from that are as good if not better than the ones we hit. I can make a list if you want, but some of the Batdorf folks and I hit up about 8 places last Spring and could have kept going had time permitted.

I attribute that improvement in such a short time directly to the barista competitions, competitors and even barista/shop owner spectators who might have attended and took home a thing or two because of it. Don't get upset because it hasn't affected your area, I suggest you do a better job evangelizing Idaho. Or go to Spokane...

As for locating your local "indy" shops across the country that need improvement... Good luck! I suspect there is enough information and resources available out there now that if those owners really cared enough they would do something about it.

The above is just an opinion from a guy who works at a company that strives daily to help folks (at home or in a shop) improve their espresso.

Dave,

Obviously you know your area much better than I do, and yes, I do remember the tour you graciously provided. I would say however that it was my impression back then that there were a helluva lot more than 3 or 4 damn good cafes in Seattle a couple of years ago. Presumably that number has increased, but Seattle is just the sort of place where you could expect that if there would be a tendency towards improvement, that you would find it, whether it comes from barista competitions or whatever.

But the country is not Seattle, nor is the world. So the question is how do you get basic espresso making knowledge out to the broad base of cafes and their customers? I don't see the barista competitions as presently structured, resulting in that. Granted, there are cafe owners and workers out there who couldn't care less, and they are not going to be moved towards quality no matter what. But how about the significant percentage of establishments out there who simply don't know what is needed to make a decent shot and who might be able to be interested if there was an opportunity for them to learn?

If what we want to do is to improve the espresso that is out there, rather than having contestants in this competition figure out how to deal with the limitations of the barista comp rules as structured, why not instead have competitions and programs that have as their basis the desire to expand the base rather than slightly improve the top of a pyramid with a very slender pointed top?

That's my point.

ken