coyote-1 wrote:Guess these marketers are just lying then [about crema]...

Crema is kind of like bottomless pours: If it's wildly off, then it's a safe bet the espresso will disappoint. A pretty pour and a nicely colored crema doesn't guarantee a good espresso. To put it another way, if you master the basics and have fresh coffee, a nicely colored crema is easy and doesn't really tell you much about the espresso other than it wasn't [obviously] screwed up. If you have stale coffee, it's nearly impossible to produce a nice looking pour or crema (well, unless it's high in Robusta).

coyote-1 wrote: identical prep should result in roughly identical crema. That my concept was 'irrelevant'. So I deleted the post.

With that background, here's an image (first) of the 82 Rome Street that was brewed today using identical temperature/preparation to the Forte that generated such dark crema yesterday (2nd image).

Something else needs to be identical, which is the picture setting (lighting & camera exposure) if you want those pictures presented to be of any help. Without it, you can even end up making the same crema look different.

Crema tells very little, if at all. I can get a beautiful crema on a shot, and the espresso can taste like hell. And some blends will have not such a good looking crema and taste wonderful. It's just a window dressing.

If crema is the judging criteria, one may mistake it for Crème Brûlée.

Capuchin Monk wrote:Something else needs to be identical, which is the picture setting (lighting & camera exposure) if you want those pictures presented to be of any help. Without it, you can even end up making the same crema look different.

If you insist. The lighting in those pics was very similar. Bright cloudy day, ambient lighting. Brown table in my home office, which is mostly windows, patio table with the darker crema out on the patio. Same iPhone camera. The hues of the cup itself are virtually identical in both images. But like I said.... If you insist,

bullet08 wrote:Crema tells very little, if at all. I can get a beautiful crema on a shot, and the espresso can taste like hell. And some blends will have not such a good looking crema and taste wonderful. It's just a window dressing.

In the other thread, someone said "I'll be blunt" while stating exactly what you are saying here. HOWEVER.... nowhere have I claimed that a nice crema is a determinant on whether you or Monk or anyone else will enjoy the flavor of a shot! Y'all are presuming to respond to a statement that I've not made.

But since we're going down that path, I've been playing a bit. First off, note that even with a starting brew temperature of 180F I cannot get the crema on this Forte coffee to be as light as on the Rome Street. Which is not a light crema either. But at 180, the Forte crema is not persistent and leaves little to no residue on the inside of the cup as I drink it. As the brew temperature increases, the crema turns darker... and leaves more oily residue on the inside of the cup. Temperature of 199 gets more of that residue than a temperature of 195. Temperature of 197 gets a reddish brown crema, as in the pic I posted. Temp of 199 gets darker brown. And the flavor changes along the way! At 197 I'm getting more spice in the flavor, while at 199 I'm getting slightly more nutty flavors.

This tells me that in the case of this bag of Forte, the crema could be something of an indicator of flavor. After all, releasing those oils is part of the brew process. The desirability of more or less of the oils is a matter of individual taste. Much to my surprise, I'm finding that 199, which generates the dark brown crema*, is my preferred flavor for this particular coffee. I'm also finding preinfusion to be undesirable with this coffee; it tastes best to me at about 28 seconds, with just a couple seconds ramp-up to 9 bar.

To those admonishing me "what question are you asking?": well, I'm not. I'm sharing experiences along with the data I accumulate along the way. I know the typical format of forums like this** is a) struggling hobbyists post questions, and b) self-appointed experts provide advice. But as I've consistently found that the conventional wisdom advice given (example: "you'll struggle mightily unless you spend $1500 or more on your machine") does not match my real world experience, I opt instead to simply share what I learn. In the perhaps vain hope that others might find it helpful.

**Incidentally, I'm not singling out this forum. I've experienced this on many forums in which I have participated, and observed it in action on a multitude of other forums.

*In comparison to a dark roast I tried a few months ago, where temperature of 199 generated a thin crema with almost no persistence, along with an ashen flavor profile.

Snip snip snip...

coyote-1 wrote:But as I've consistently found that the conventional wisdom advice given (example: "you'll struggle mightily unless you spend $1500 or more on your machine") does not match my real world experience...

I've recommended a Cafelat Robot and others have suggested the Flair Espresso as a price performer. In my experience, they're easier to use and the espresso is better than entry level kits like the Gaggia Baby. Of course, they don't steam.

Today I've used the ECM Puristika with flow control and it's nearly effortless to make a very good espresso. Could an entry level espresso match it? For "comfort food" type blends and in the hands of a skilled barista, probably. For a newbie? Maybe, maybe not. And that's really what separates the entry level and mid-tier.

I am aware you recommend cheap Saeco ViaVenezia modifications to make up this difference. I have no experience with them, so I cannot speak to how well they'd match up.

bullet08 wrote:Crema tells very little, if at all. I can get a beautiful crema on a shot, and the espresso can taste like hell. And some blends will have not such a good looking crema and taste wonderful. It's just a window dressing.

coyote-1 wrote: In the other thread, someone said "I'll be blunt" while stating exactly what you are saying here. HOWEVER.... nowhere have I claimed that a nice crema is a determinant on whether you or Monk or anyone else will enjoy the flavor of a shot! Y'all are presuming to respond to a statement that I've not made.

Nowhere in that reply do I see anyone presuming a claim that you've made, I just see a comment on the topic of crema, which you decided to make a pretty open ended thread about posing the question of relevancy at the end of it. My take is that it's entirely possible based on a lot of people's recent experiences with espresso in the past few years as lighter roasts become more appreciated and equipment has become a lot more capable of making good espresso with said roasts that the claim made above is the one a lot of us have settled on.

coyote-1 wrote:This tells me that in the case of this bag of Forte, the crema could be something of an indicator of flavor. After all, releasing those oils is part of the brew process. The desirability of more or less of the oils is a matter of individual taste. Much to my surprise, I'm finding that 199, which generates the dark brown crema*, is my preferred flavor for this particular coffee. I'm also finding preinfusion to be undesirable with this coffee; it tastes best to me at about 28 seconds, with just a couple seconds ramp-up to 9 bar.

This is exactly what you're being told. Correlate crema appearance, color, etc with that exact coffee and you may know how well it turned out by looking at the shot before sipping. But without the taste component or between different coffees, comparing crema is just about useless.

And before you continue to be upset when people are trying to be helpful, me sharing my opinion above does not imply I think I'm better than you or that I'm an expert. I have reasons for my claims, but they're based on my experiences alone. And nearly everyone on any forum engaging with you is in the same boat. I don't think I've seen anyone ever lead their statements with "as a self-appointed coffee expert," that looks like just a chip on your shoulder, and it's honestly pretty insulting to claim that's what everyone here is doing just by sharing their opinions.

maccompatible wrote:...that looks like just a chip on your shoulder, and it's honestly pretty insulting to claim that's what everyone here is doing just by sharing their opinions.

Let's move on. For some thoughtful reminders, contributors to this thread are invited to re-read the site's Guidelines for productive online discussion.

coyote-1 wrote:If you insist. The lighting in those pics was very similar. Bright cloudy day, ambient lighting. Brown table in my home office, which is mostly windows, patio table with the darker crema out on the patio. Same iPhone camera. The hues of the cup itself are virtually identical in both images. But like I said.... If you insist,

In digital photo production for comparison purpose, similar doesn't cut it. The camera setting has to be exactly identical otherwise all bets are off. Similar may cut it in beverage tasting world but not in photo comparison world.