What's a light roast? - Page 15

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
User avatar

Postby Almico » Jun 06, 2019, 8:52 am

Neither of those profiles look particularly bad. The extended Maillard would lose some acidity and add some savory notes, but it shouldn't make it undrinkable. I suspect the bean might be the culprit. I know you said you tried this coffee before, but roasting light is easy, find a green that likes being roasted light is much harder.

That said, I would try charging lower and use more heat to get to DE by 3:30 (if you can) and 1C by 6:30. Drop at 7:45.


Postby dale_cooper » replying to Almico » Jun 06, 2019, 9:22 am

The profiles look QUITE good, but thats the problem with profiles. I strongly believe that I can have 2 similar looking profiles, but got there using different methodologies (charge temp, air, heat, etc) and the resulting cup is wildly different. One could be crap while the other is stellar. Profiles are not transferable between roasting machines. This is the danger of forum roasting discussion when we're using different machines.

What you think works, may not work on the bullet, vs the quest, vs whatever else. Just need to figure out how the bullet works, which in this case, you're going to have better luck finding bullet owners to discuss.

User avatar

Postby Almico » Jun 06, 2019, 11:26 am

Rob Hoos might disagree. He's gone to great lengths to show the same profile will taste too similar to distinguish between very different roasters.

https://dailycoffeenews.com/2019/05/24/ ... -machines/

User avatar
Team HB

Postby another_jim » Jun 06, 2019, 12:57 pm

FWIW, we did taste tests with air (Franken P1) versus drum (Franken Hottop). The same bean temp profiles were easily distinguished for washed coffees (not so easy for DPs), since they required very different environmental temperatures to achieve. I modified the P1 with more insulation and ran a no agitation (with periodics blips) low flow/ hot air start to emulate the much flatter drum ETs, and at that point all the roasts were indistinguishable.

However, these were longer profiles, around 15 minutes; so they may not carry over to the faster drum roasting done now.
Jim Schulman


Postby N3Roaster » Jun 06, 2019, 1:52 pm

I've done a lot of work in transferring profiles between systems (I was making the same assertions in 2012) and have helped as an instructor in the class that's been mentioned a few times (in some ways that's a simplification of the methods I employ, but that the results are as good as they are with those simplifications and other class limitations across a vastly broader range of machines than I would have been able to test on my own speaks to the strength of the findings). I think a clarification should be that for most roasting plans it's possible to work out an equivalent across machines (I do think there may be corner cases where you just can't reasonably drive a machine to create the match) but note the emphasis on work. It gets easier the more you do it and the better the instrumentation on each pair is, but this is a high level skill that requires a solid understanding of your machines and attention to quite a bit more than just the numbers showing up on a screen. The more interesting corollary here is that the plan viewed through the lens of one machine will likely look very different from the same plan viewed through the lens of a different machine, which throws a whole bunch of popular preconceptions about what a good roasting plan should look like under the bus (where they belong).

User avatar

Postby Denis » Jun 12, 2019, 10:52 am

Almico, here is the perfect video, it just popped up:


Read the first comment, and that was not me. Fact is I just have 1.2 kg of 3 types roasted coffee from UK on Probat. The roast flavor is present in all bags, yacks.


Postby dale_cooper » replying to Denis » Jun 12, 2019, 2:34 pm

Denis - what machine do you roast on, or have you roasted on in the past, on a regular basis?

User avatar

Postby Almico » Jun 12, 2019, 3:11 pm

Denis wrote:Almico, here is the perfect video, it just popped up:


Read the first comment, and that was not me. Fact is I just have 1.2 kg of 3 types roasted coffee from UK on Probat. The roast flavor is present in all bags, yacks.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: "coffee roasters are like drivers; no one thinks they are bad at it". The fact that the commenter said all coffee from drum roasters is roasty completely voids any credibility. I'm drinking a very nice 91 point washed Ethiopia right now that is light and sweet and juicy and roasted on a very low-tech Turkish drum roaster (mine). There is not a hint of roastiness.

The coffee roaster (machine) has much less to do with the result than the coffee roaster (person).

BTW, that video had more gobbledygook than useful information. Basically his claim was that Loring probes are faster, so you need to account for that when switching roasters. And the fact that the drum is stationary and therefore sealed, even though there is a ton of air moving through from the burner, is somehow magically significant.

I purchased a few bags of coffee roasted on a Loring. They were nothing special. I'm not blaming the machine, just the person using it. They have one at my local importers warehouse. I've seen it in operation and cupped coffee roasted on it. Again, OK.

Are you claiming that all coffee entering a Loring roaster is somehow magically transformed into a coffee only the Gods would drink?

One thing I do concede is that people spending that much money on a coffee roaster better believe it is the best thing since sliced bread. I priced the new 7kg NightHawk and it would have cost $65,000 by the time I got it installed. It also burns at 1450*F and there is no way I wanted that anywhere near my building. My $6K used 5kg drum roaster is doing just fine. And I even have some money left over at the end of each month.

That said, I would love to have a Loring roaster if it fit my situation. It seems to be a highly controllable roaster when used manually. Sadly, I'd bet most roasters are lulled into using it in auto mode.

User avatar

Postby Denis » Jun 13, 2019, 1:58 am

I grind a lot finer than on normal machines, and my shots are never 25-30 sec long. Because of this I get more unpleasant taste in the cup than with a normal 1:2 shot @ 25/30s

For example lets take this last roast, from Catalyst UK on Probat, there is a Columbia smells good in the bag, fruity, and after I grind it I get smoked bacon. The aftertaste in the cup is just bad, even in short shots, or lower temp- coarse grind. Lowering the temp, grinding coarser, pulling fast with just a glimps of PI makes it better, but the aftertaste is there, you cannot take it out. No matter if I drink it cold/hot, stir, is there you cannot ignore it.

I never ever had a smokey coffee roasted on Loring, and I did have even north Italy roast style/level on Loring, with tiny spots of oil on the beans, but they never tasted smokey. I had bad undeveloped coffee on Loring, but this was part of an experimental roast, but yes, you can have bad on that too. Its just that if someone invests alot of money into a device, then the responsibility and expectation are higher. Coffee collective is awful as filter on Loring, but on the other hand I cannot complain to roasters if I buy filter coffee and use it in espresso.

I have and had good coffee light from drum roasters too, one example would be Rocko Mountain or Uraga (both Etiopia) from Good Karma, but for the most part, I either get an overcooked on the outside with a lot of bad smell and taste or I get the other extreme, green beans like the ones I got from Gardelli recently. I don't like undeveloped coffee, but I don't want any roasting flavors in my cup, so this is why I never buy espresso roast.

My shots are 50-120 sec with ultra fine grind, the taste is amplified, maybe this is why you don't feel roasting flavors in your coffee.

@dale_cooper I would like to taste from your roasted coffee, Ill pay for everything, if you agree pm.