What's a light roast? - Page 13

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
User avatar
Almico
Supporter ♡

#121: Post by Almico » Jun 04, 2019, 2:42 pm

Denis wrote:Here you go, got something special for you, watch at 20:11.
And after tasting over 50 speciallty coffee roasteries with drum roasters (probat, giesen, diedrich, etc) and over 6 with aid bed roasters (loring) all I can say there is a huge difference in taste, uniformity of the roast and the most important, extraction values.
The is a difference in taste, but it's not huge. Drum roasters do light roasts better. Air roasters are more controllable for medium to dark roasts.

false1001

#122: Post by false1001 » Jun 04, 2019, 2:47 pm

another_jim wrote:Decling ROR indeed! The difference is kind of obvious if you stop using this mind numbing babble, and think basic heat transfer. On your HG/BM, the environmental temperature rises slowly throughout the roast, so the bean temperature profile is far more straight line. In the Bullet, you are using a high ET drop in temperature, and keeping the ET roughly steady. That means the bean temperature profile is more curved, spending longer in the later parts of the roast. Try a lower drop in temperature and more heat so the ET climbs throughout the roast, this will give you the profile you had on the HG/BM.
I'm glad i'm coming to the same conclusions, although finding the right drop temp has been tricky. Luckily I got ~20lbs of garbage beans from a local commercial roaster so i'll be testing out optimal drop temps for this method this week.
another_jim wrote: Oh, plan out your roasts ahead of time, and stop fiddling on the controls to correct every ROR twitch; the more nervously you roast, the worse it will taste. This is the secret reason people get better results on bigger roasters -- they filter out ROR induce roaster twtchiness disorder (RORIRTD)
before a roast: follow the designer curves, don't freak out if RoR spikes, stick to the plan
30 seconds after drying finishes:

Image

Being serious, I've been having a lot of trouble with Designer on linux the past couple of versions so I've been rather lackadaisical about pre-planning my temps... I'll update to 2.0 after work and hopefully that will help

false1001

#123: Post by false1001 » Jun 04, 2019, 2:49 pm

Almico wrote:The is a difference in taste, but it's not huge. Drum roasters do light roasts better. Air roasters are more controllable for medium to dark roasts.
I would not be surprised at all if your local microclimate effected this balance more than we think. Humid environments will equalize the differences, whereas arid climates (like my own) I can see producing radically different coffees between the two methods.

crunchybean

#124: Post by crunchybean » Jun 04, 2019, 3:02 pm

@false1001

Either embrace a method or find your own way, but you'll have to be fairly clever for the latter.

"..who the hell knows.." ehhhemm, go reread my post #80, but you should reread the thread. I dare say there are some juicy tidbits laying around. Pun intended

And instead of loosing brain cells banging your head, reread stuff, but more importantly try and understand your machine and how it transfers heat. For example, how much fan speed can your push at what energy level to increase/decrease/maintain BT/ET. Set up experiments to understand the limits of your machine. Like test driving a car, how fast is 0-60, what's the turn radius, how quickly can you stop, etc etc.

I have gone back to old posts/articles/books/papers a number of times especially when feeling lost. And the more time I spent with my roaster and trying new things, the more I understood what people were saying. If you want to get better read more than you roast.

User avatar
Almico
Supporter ♡

#125: Post by Almico » Jun 04, 2019, 3:07 pm

false1001 wrote:I would not be surprised at all if your local microclimate effected this balance more than we think. Humid environments will equalize the differences, whereas arid climates (like my own) I can see producing radically different coffees between the two methods.
I don't know. I roast all winter where the humidity can be 15%. I'm inland and in the hill country bordering on PA. Not really all that humid.

I roasted 4 years on an oversized popcorn popper air roaster. I've been roasting the same coffees on a drum for about 5 months. The flavor of the coffee changed so little, not one of my customers had a clue I made such a "drastic" switch. The big change I noticed was that it became easier to hit the sweet spot with the higher degree of temp stability afforded by a big steel drum.

User avatar
Denis

#126: Post by Denis » Jun 04, 2019, 3:14 pm

Almico, the best espresso I had by far is from loring roasters with light roasts. I can measure this soon and ill demonstrate it pretty easy with a refractometer in espresso.

The evenness of the roast, overall not only inside out its just at a different level compared to a drum roaster.

If you have any occasion then try them:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bxb6FHXoAA4/

Image

User avatar
Almico
Supporter ♡

#127: Post by Almico » Jun 04, 2019, 3:19 pm

Denis wrote:Almico, the best espresso I had by far is from loring roasters with light roasts. I can measure this soon and ill demonstrate it pretty easy with a refractometer in espresso.

The evenness of the roast, overall not only inside out its just at a different level compared to a drum roaster.

If you have any occasion then try them:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bxb6FHXoAA4/

<image>
I've tried coffee from Lorings. Nothing special. Especially since most who use them use automatic profiling which gets you into the ballpark, but not the perfect roast.

I understand you like them. Good for you.

There is a shared roasting facility in Brooklyn. They have a Loring and a Probat. I met several of them at this year's coffee fest. Each one of them said they do their light roast on the Probat and darker roasts on the Loring

User avatar
Denis

#128: Post by Denis » Jun 04, 2019, 3:35 pm

Then they dont know what they are doing clearly. Many big names that have won alot of competitions (way harder and better quality than SCA and WRC) roast light on loring.

Take a look into Nordic roasting competition, the names there roast on lorings, not auto, and they roast light, bigger batches, faster roasting, better control, no smoke involved or roasting flavors in the cup.

Damatteo roasts on Loring since 2007 (12 years!) and for sure they don't copy -automatize profiles. They search for the best profile for each coffee and then replicate it 100% the same as you saw on that Instagram link so the quality in the cup is the same each batch. This is something that a lot of roasters cannot do. Drum roasters slowly decade in Europe, big names are already switching to fluid bed roasters.

User avatar
Almico
Supporter ♡

#129: Post by Almico » replying to Denis » Jun 04, 2019, 6:42 pm

And clearly you know everything and everyone else knows nothings. Pardon me for saying, but each of your posts gets more self-righteous than the last. Ask yourself: are you really posting here to help someone out, or just show how much you think you know about the way coffee is supposed to be roasted and brewed?

I really couldn't care less about competitions. The people that win competitions are the people that like to, and are driven to win competitions, not necessarily the best at what they do. People that are really good at their profession, don't need to win anything. Personally, I really do not care what anyone else does. I care what I do and what makes me and my customers happy.

There was an article posted a few weeks back how Rob Hoos and associates demonstrated very convincingly that expert coffee tasters could not tell the difference in which roasting system was used, as long as profiles were matched. They used a Loring, a Probat and a Diedrich. The bottom line was no one could tell which roaster was used in each batch...except you of course. https://dailycoffeenews.com/2019/05/24/ ... -machines/
★ Helpful

EddyQ

#130: Post by EddyQ » Jun 04, 2019, 10:14 pm

Denis wrote:The evenness of the roast, overall not only inside out its just at a different level compared to a drum roaster
I was going to keep out of this until you compared a Loring to drum roaster. Loring is a drum roaster. The Loring "drum" gets heated very hot just like my North. How hot? I don't think anyone knows and Loring keeps it a secret. I know what my North is doing. A lot of folks call Loring an air roaster with no evidence. Sure, the burner air is likely well mixed before entering the drum. Without knowing what all the metal temps are at, I don't think anyone can say the air doesn't have unevenness and the beans are do not have unevenness. Almico roasted a lot of coffee on a fluid bed, which definitely is a air roaster, so IMO he has compared one to the other. Rob Hoos showed respected coffee professionals can not taste the difference between a Loring and several other drum machines if same beans and profile. Until someone does due diligent and roasts a light roast in a similar fashion as Rob and/or actually measures things that matter on a Loring, I am going to believe Rob and Al that a Loring is no better than a lot of drum roasters.

As for roast evenness and flavor, my limited number of roasts have uncovered some amazing light roasts with my North 1K drum roaster. They seemed very even to me and have zero roastiness. Better flavor than anything I have tasted from a Loring. But maybe there are some Nortic roasts out there that I have not tasted and Loring roasted. Maybe the Loring does have an edge. I'd love to see/taste or even hear of some credible evidence of this and end chatter about things we cannot draw conclusion about.