Trying to roast 3rd Wave

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
crunchybean
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#1: Post by crunchybean »

Preface:
In learning to roast, I've learned to throw darts blindly and (somewhat) am able to hit the board rather consistently. Now I am trying to achieve different fads or qualities not inherent in the bean but rather by technique of the roaster. I define 3rd Wave as Stumptown's Hairbender.

Question:
How do you roast (from your experience) 3rd Wave?

Please use a profile to demonstrate what you are talking about and please say what you aim for and how you achieve it.

Rules: nobody is wrong, no disagreements, let's have fun :)

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Almico
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#2: Post by Almico »

I'm not in the camp that considers "3rd wave" a roasting style, but I guess the term has morphed into a process of roasting coffee as light as you possibly can while still being considered not under developed"?

I do not believe 3rd wave is defined by shoehorning a coffee into something it is not. I think that is the very antithesis of 3rd wave.

I've also never had Stumptown's Hairbender, or any other coffee by them (or practically any other roaster), so I'm not clear on the premise.

So I guess I have nothing to contribute. :( I'll shut up and watch.

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happycat
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#3: Post by happycat replying to Almico »

I think you already contributed a lot here.

I thought the issue was to not obliterate origins with roasting and blending with the notion that at a certain point roasting dominated over origins.

The SCAA has a great flavour wheel that can be used to provide a common set of vocabulary for talking flavours.

If you like a particular product that seems like a flavour choice.
LMWDP #603

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yakster
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#4: Post by yakster »

Modulating the Flavor Profile of Coffee: One Roaster's Manifesto by Rob Hoos may be a good place to start, the speaks to how to tailor the espression of coffee to your likes or learning to accentuate the qualities of a coffee that you choose in the roast.
-Chris

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another_jim
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#5: Post by another_jim »

As Alan says; the original idea of third wave was transparency from bean to cup, so that the coffee itself, rather than any processing steps, stood out. Accentuating the characteristic sharp, herbal flavors of light roasts as a branding gimmick is a corruption of this ideal. It's the difference between coffee giants like George Howell and Geoff Watts on one hand, and posers with blogs and pop up stores on the other.

Rob Hoos, on the other hand, is in neither camp, but a representative of the older idea that a given coffee can have multiple valid expressions.

I think there are some coffees more suited to the third wave philosophy. Geishas, for instance, seem best if there is no discernable roast flavor at all, and only the origin fragrances and neutral caramels are found in the cup. On the other, SL28s from Kenya and Bourbons from Central America can be delightful at a number of different roasts, since they have roast flavors that can enhance, rather than just distract, from the experience.

If you want a "third wave branded" roast, just start a stop watch at the first pop of the first crack, and dump the coffee 75 seconds later. Don't forget to moo when you drink it.
Jim Schulman

crunchybean (original poster)
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#6: Post by crunchybean (original poster) »

The best way I can describe what I am going for is that super creamy, Starbucks (but without the roast) coffee flavor. It's definitely FC to FC+ but lacks the fruits and acidity or juiciness. I am having trouble not with getting fruit, I can get fruit for days in anything now (minus yellow bourbon). But I want that creamy coffee 2005-2012 flavor coming out of all the West Coast glitter gals. Ritual, Intelligentsia, Stumptown and others...Verve (though I never tried them). Pre Handsome (ironically the guy at the bar was really nice to me), and Pre Bluebottle. The smell of Hair Bender is so iconic to me I'm not sure how to put into words. Maybe if you ever tried Sweet Maria's roasted coffee 2010-12.


My issue is that I think I am coming in too hot and so when I extend the time of roast I just burn past it. Maybe it's because my heat curves are fruit prone and not cream prone. So I am still familiarizing myself with the parameters (speed/momentum) of my roaster and the heat required for different end goals. As well as the style of heat in which to achieve it. Or I could just be not using the correct bean and thus the attempt is more difficult, or dare I say...f(r)utile.


@jim, out of my deep respect I will moo for you. Is this a new technique used to aerate the coffee before consuming? If running naked out in the streets would grant me the power to become a fully actuated roaster and wield the power to roast to my desire. I would gladly strip and dance.

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yakster
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#7: Post by yakster »

My memories of Hairbender include black licorice and dark molasses notes.
-Chris

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MNate
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#8: Post by MNate »

another_jim wrote: I think there are some coffees more suited to the third wave philosophy. Geishas, for instance, seem best if there is no discernable roast flavor at all, and only the origin fragrances and neutral caramels are found in the cup. On the other, SL28s from Kenya and Bourbons from Central America can be delightful at a number of different roasts, since they have roast flavors that can enhance, rather than just distract, from the experience.
This is hard enough to learn as a taster let alone to try to know well enough to roast. But I imagine roasting to be a great way to learn even more quickly, if that is, you pour over the advice of Jim, the Jedi Master, and Alan a veritable Jedi himself. So keep going and posting so I can learn third hand too.

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keno
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#9: Post by keno »

I consider 3rd wave a pretty broad term which encompasses a variety of specialty coffee roasting styles from Nordic (light roast) to Seattle (darker but still lighter than Starbucks). What they share is a belief that you should let some of the bean's origin characteristics show through. Generally that means roasting up to second crack or lighter. But that's still a pretty wide range.
crunchybean wrote:The best way I can describe what I am going for is that super creamy, Starbucks (but without the roast) coffee flavor. It's definitely FC to FC+ but lacks the fruits and acidity or juiciness.
I'm not sure I really know what you mean. But if I had to guess it sounds like your talking more about the Seattle side of the spectrum. I would describe it as more chocolate and caramel and less bright and fruity. The fruit that does come through would be more cherry than citrus. For a roast profile try dry at around 5:00 or a little later, extend the Maillard phase to hit first crack at around 9:00. Don't back off too much through first crack and do about 3:00 development time with a finish around 430F which should be just before you hit second crack. At least that's how I'd approach it on my roaster.

There are so many other factors to consider in relation to your question: What origin of bean do you prefer? What flavor profile do you like? Washed, nautral, or honey process? What preparation method do you use? What type of roaster do you have?

More info on these questions would help people provide you with better advice. Good luck!

crunchybean (original poster)
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#10: Post by crunchybean (original poster) »

Hey thanks for replying, can you list a pic of profile to help illustrate what you are saying?

My preferences for flavors and processing are none, if it's done well I like them all. What I am going for in this thread is how I described before. Roasting coffee that is creamy, full bodied, rich coffee (with no added cream, sugar, etc.). Chocolate and caramel have no problem being creamy, like as in milk chocolate and toffee. Also tea of cacao nibs can also be inherently creamy, depending on orgin. Make no mistake, I am not being sarcastic or patronizing when I say this, the word creamy literally means resembling or containing cream, so think of milk chocolate or strawberries and cream and then in your mind simply isolating the "creaminess". In the case of coffee I mean creamy in both odor/flavor and texture but the two can be isolated like when tasting tea, in certain oolongs called milk oolongs, some can taste creamy and some can be texturally creamy and some can be both.

All these preferences and what I am doing pertaining to me do not help me. Since the beginning I have been interpreting what drum roasters do and applying it to how I roast. I would like to know how you achieve these results.

I use an Ikawa at Home.

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