Scandinavian roast profile

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
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Almico

#1: Post by Almico »

Lately I've been daring myself to roast coffee lighter and lighter. I'm down to the 12% DTR range and still haven't hit the "underdeveloped" bottom.

I thought I did yesterday with a dense El Salvador. I've been roasting this coffee for a few months and it has become a favorite at the bar. I made an Americano right out of the cooling bin and I got an initial hint of "grass", but it morphed quickly into a pleasant acidity. Second sip, same thing. I was hoping a little rest might smooth it out. I made another this morning and it was better.

But it was the batch brew I made at the bar this afternoon that really surprised me. It was spectacular. Nice medium body, even a hint of chocolate, but a huge green apple/kiwi acidity with enough sweetness that it just danced around my mouth and made me smile. It was one of those times I regretted that coffee has caffeine, because I just wanted more.

I made my manager taste some, and although she's more of a med/dark coffee person, she picked out the sour apple immediately and drank the whole cup. Hum...

It just so happens that Royal Coffee was doing another webinar and had Joanna Alm of Drop Coffee in Sweden on talking about roast profiles. Although they spent a lot more time chatting and didn't dive too deep into roast profiling, I still gleaned a few tidbits. Here is the vid:

And this is the roast profile they were discussing.

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I annotated the horizontal and vertical lines to estimate dry and the see 1C on the RoR.

One thing that struck me was the ~4:45 time to dry, 0:51/8% DTR and 10:21 total. I had been doing roasts with 5:00 to dry, 12% DTRs @ 1:20, but total roast times under 9:00. How the heck was this roast stretching out 1:30 longer?

Well it's obviously in the relatively long Maillard phase. I found this fascinating and wanted to translate this in Artisan Designer and see what it looked like against my latest light roasts.

Since my roaster hits 1C around 370*, I had to transpose the 1C here from 392* and the final temp from 403*F to 380*F and came up with this:

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1C should be 370 and final should be 381, but it's close enough for this purpose.

When I laid my light roast profiles over the top I get this:

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Pretty dramatic difference. Obviously more initial heat, big Maillard stretch and lower drop temp.

I was thinking my 390* finish was low. Going to 380 is crazytown. But with the extended Maillard, who knows. Gotta try this one next time...

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CarefreeBuzzBuzz
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#2: Post by CarefreeBuzzBuzz »

Fascinating Alan. You can also try the new Transposer tool to see if aligns with what you did. Another point of feedback.

Edit: added link to blog post on tool
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Almico

#3: Post by Almico »

CarefreeBuzzBuzz wrote:Fascinating Alan. You can also try the new Transposer tool to see if aligns with what you did. Another point of feedback.
Cool tool. I'm going to have to play with it a bit.

OldmatefromOZ

#4: Post by OldmatefromOZ »

Interesting, thanks for the video.

I guess it depends when you call end of dry? As to whether 5/4 or 6/3 dry/ mai, but looks pretty similar to what TW is doing.

I posted this a few weeks ago and ive been pursuing similar style profiling.

Coffee Roasting - alternative practices

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Almico

#5: Post by Almico »

I missed that other thread. I wish the pics were more clear. I'd love to know what dozen+ events are being tracked at the end of the roast.

Personally, I'm not a fan of Loring roasters. I tried to be. I've used an air roaster before. But once I learned that the airflow is tied directly to the amount heat, I was out. In other words in order to turn the heat up or down, you have to turn up or down the airflow. It's possible that for TW's style of roasting, that doesn't matter, but I find most coffees do better with less air, especially in the beginning. It is also possible that the undeniable convenience of the Loring roasting process, especially in a production setting, makes giving up flexibility and craft irresistible. Not to me.


I haven't had the time to do a deep dive into 4, 5 or 6 minute dry times. I have a feeling it matters. Rob Hoos has put it out there, and I tend to agree, that more heat in the beginning of a roast builds more pressure inside the bean, which translates to heat being forced into the bean before it has a chance to escape outwards. There is an almost pressure cooker effect that develops the coffee faster. But in order to really test this you would need to accurately measure and take into account density, moisture, aging, etc. I don't have the time.

If that is the case, then for light roasts, where coffees are being dropped after 0:50 seconds post 1C, more "development" early on is critical. A few seconds might not matter, but I would thing half a minute would.

It does seem that high initial heat is universal to the process, which makes Lorings particularly handicapped if trying to "soak". You just can't heat up the drum and dump in the beans using little airflow and allow them to soak up the heat and stabilize before increasing the convection.

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Almico

#6: Post by Almico »

Tried to emulate this roast this morning with a nice Colombian. Not bad considering I had no idea what settings to use. I started the roast with 25% air, but found that the turn was not going to happen fast enough and bumped it to 50%, my max heat transfer setting. I didn't want the heat to go too fast, so I turned it down from 100% to 67%, but then had to go back to 83% to make dry by 5:00. With all that heat energy going, I did not turn it down fast enough and got a bump after the free water was gone. Got it back on track (around 1:30 before 1C) by turning the burner off completely, and then firing it back up before killing it again and coasting to the finish.

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I'm having an Americano now and it's not underdeveloped at all. A little weak, but that's an extraction issue. This style of roasting, especially since Scandinavian roasters tend to omni-roast, puts a lot of onus on baristas. My lever machines will give me some flexibility pulling shots. For the next one I'll try pre-infusing longer.

This measured Agtron 82/96.

Oh yeah...I heard 3-4 pops of first crack. That was it.

Dokkie

#7: Post by Dokkie »

This is even lighter than the Drop one right? You are adding 7 degrees fahrenheit after first crack while Drop does 6 degrees Celsius right? 7 degrees fahrenheit is only 3,88 Celsius if I'm correct. Btw I still think soak happens with Lorings, I saw this one from April for example.
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Almico

#8: Post by Almico »

Dokkie wrote:This is even lighter than the Drop one right? You are adding 7 degrees fahrenheit after first crack while Drop does 6 degrees Celsius right? 7 degrees fahrenheit is only 3,88 Celsius if I'm correct. Btw I still think soak happens with Lorings, I saw this one from April for example.
Yeah, pretty scary! I let it run a bit longer, but it was still very, very light.

Not sure how you soak with a Loring. The drum and faceplate are not really designed to hold a lot of heat. I kill the gas completely after warm up on most of my roasts and don't turn it back on until just before the turn. The coffee would actually complete half the turn all on its own just from residual heat. I'm not sure how a Loring would react if you did that.

But as it turns out, I might need to either reduce batch size or stop soaking in order to roast these profiles.

I normally charge around the same temp as I plan to drop. In other words if I'm doing a darker roast where I drop at 415*F, I will charge at 415*F. Same for 390* roasts. It seems these Scandinavian roasts are charged lower, 350ish, and possibly with the gas on full blast to make the sharp turn. I've never has an issue with scorching and I don't want to start.

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CarefreeBuzzBuzz
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#9: Post by CarefreeBuzzBuzz »

Almico wrote:Y....It seems these Scandinavian roasts are charged lower, 350ish, and possibly with the gas on full blast to make the sharp turn. I've never has an issue with scorching and I don't want to start.
Hmmm isn't that how you will find the limits or new opportunities. You're probably the most skilled one here to try this.
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Almico

#10: Post by Almico »

Tried another one with Panama Elida. I reduced the batch from 8 to 6# to both reduce the pain of a bad mistake as well as allow for a more rapid ramp. Well the ramp went a bit too fast, and I shorted the roast by over 2 minutes, but a good result nonetheless. Agtron 73/92 and still not underdeveloped. The dry fragrance is insane.

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The hard part is shaping up to be the high ramp heat and long, stretched Maillard. The BT needs to come down dramatically just as the coffee is giving up its free water. Tricky. It will be interesting to see the result when I get this right.