Roast and Learn Together - December 2018 - Page 2

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.
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Chert

Postby Chert » Dec 09, 2018, 11:32 pm

My original plan as I roast and learn was 6 roasts, the difference to be the RoR at onset 1C between the two roasts of each. I only did one Full City roast, as that is quite uncharted territory for me. I hope to gain some insight from one of you

A charge mass of 326 gms gives me 14 roasts out of my 10#, so I went with that.

Here are the profiles and I will post comments to this thread as I taste through them:

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Roast 884 RoR at start 1C 12 C/min; 18% post 1C development.


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Roast 885 RoR at start 1C: 9 C/min; 18% post 1C development.

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Roast 886 RoR at start 1C 11 c/min; 22% post 1c development.
This roast was the most distinctive and flavorful at first cupping, day 0, 3 hours post roast. This was consensus of a group of 5 tasters, but general impression was that coffee was pleasant, not distinctive, full city roast (888) being the most complex.

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Roast 887 RoR at start 1c 11 c/min; 22% post 1c development. (I shortened ramp, but RoR was unchanged)

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12/12: I am drinking this FC roast as pourover, #6 large filter for my co-workers to share. I get the sarsaparilla aspect, sweetness and I think I consider that a successful FC roast, worth trying to tweak

Two more efforts after reading what comes below:
Dec 11
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Impression 1: Cupping only 3 hours after the roast session made for some indistinct brews. The beans aroma from the jar is sweet and fruity, but not expressed when cupped.
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crunchybean

Postby crunchybean » Dec 10, 2018, 12:36 am

Have you read Roa's latest blog post? https://www.scottrao.com/blog/2018/11/2 ... rack-began There was also discussion on his instagram about it. Specifically the flattening of the ROR leading to the crash and flick. Which I believe I am seeing in your profile.

When I go to Full City or beyond I first think of how is what flavor style do I want to go for (personally it's the crystal clear and juicy). And how do I want that flavor profile being formed, or really how Can it be formed. 1) through the acids and juices aka intercellular fluid 2) by the break down of cellulose wall (without charging). Which leads me to the main point of moisture management. I'm not saying that changing ROR after 1C is good or bad, because I don't know. I've read Rao saying he doesn't adjust it before (something like 45s) or after. But I go hard and I say it's ok if you can manage the moisture/pressure (or whatever it is) mitigating that part so it doesn't turn into an oil patch sending the roast out of control.

I usually get to a juicy FC by trying to start the Millard squarely in the middle of my roast so the acids that can be acid in taste, kind of mellow and turn into fruit. Like ripening a fruit on the tree or adding some vinegar to a dish while cooking.

My beans come in tomorrow and I can't wait to roast 'em

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Chert

Postby Chert » Dec 10, 2018, 1:00 pm

crunchybean wrote:Have you read Roa's latest blog post? https://www.scottrao.com/blog/2018/11/2 ... rack-began There was also discussion on his instagram about it. Specifically the flattening of the ROR leading to the crash and flick. Which I believe I am seeing in your profile.


That's true. To varying degrees, all those graphs show plateau, crash, and flick. Have you come across a definition of crash in terms of decline in RoR? What is a good fall off during 1C and what level of slope is a crash? How much of a flick doesn't muddle the cup? Of course if the cup tastes great, and distinctive flavors, that is the real test. I'll peruse that blog and some posts on HB about controlling it. I have adjusted heat according to some suggestions I gleaned from such posts, but I see I need to revisit that.

[EDIT: I read the blog post and will try other ways of adjusting heat. Rao says trying to cut heat as RoRplateaus <45s before 1C and raising heat at onset 1C is not the way to go about it.]
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crunchybean

Postby crunchybean » Dec 10, 2018, 4:04 pm

Chert wrote:That's true. To varying degrees, all those graphs show plateau, crash, and flick. Have you come across a definition of crash in terms of decline in RoR? What is a good fall off during 1C and what level of slope is a crash? How much of a flick doesn't muddle the cup. Of course if the cup tastes great, and distinctive flavors, that is the real test. I'll peruse that blog and some posts on HB about controlling it. I have adjusted heat according to some suggestions I gleaned from such posts, but I see I need to revisit that.


Without my own ability to measure or see me bean temp ROR, I'm getting pretty antsy about it, I can't define in degrees/min. From what I have seen and read online, I would say that the ROR varies significantly is a problem. And the solution is to apply heat/energy to the beans earlier on. So if you have a high thermal mass (heavier/thicker drum) spend more time taking green/dry slower or good heating of the fan air add more heat to remove moisture earlier on. The point is to remove moisture as "evenly" or incrementally as possible. These are stipulations and not evidence based thoughts, sry I can't help any more than that until I get another roaster or mod this one out (which I am fairly afraid to do).

mkane

Postby mkane » Dec 10, 2018, 4:17 pm

Heres mine 300g.
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treq10

Postby treq10 » Yesterday, 2:11 am

Received my 10 lbs yesterday and put in 3 roasts today.

I roast on the Huky 500T with a charge size of 375. I went up to 400 for the R & L because I have so much of just one coffee. I didn't realize I would have to adjust for this in a pretty significant way, so there are a couple of hiccups on the roast curve. Anyway, here it goes:

Introduction:

I wanted to understand how the impact of different heat levels on the development of washed Ethiopian coffees. There are three approaches I'm testing for:

1) Full heat, short development: The idea is to push the coffee as hard as can during development, but shorten the overall development time. I like to approach of full development with limited sugar caramelization for maximum fruit/florals and sweetness with little to no roast flavors.
2) Low heat, elongated development: There is this fear in my head that high heat post 1C will burn off florality and aromatics. So why not go for what many roasters do, which is try to use the lowest possible RoR post 1C that still provides full development.
3) Somewhere in the middle.

My first roast:
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The RoR crashed at 1C, but I did not back down from heat at 95% (4 KPA on the Huky). The 1C was insanely uniform and loud, like a machine gun. I believe that the RoR crash is simply the intense exothermic reaction overloading the probe. It does not recover because I dropped the coffee before the RoR could pick back up.

Second roast:
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Same situations as the first roast, except I incorporated a higher charge temp in order to compensate for the higher charge weight & density of this coffee. I also dropped the heat earlier going into 1C vs. the first Roast (where I didn't drop the heat at all. The 1C happens a little later, and in a more controlled way, albeit the crash still happens (all the while the 1C is rolling like crazy). It's a false crash, just like the 1st Roast.

3rd Roast:
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I wanted to speed up the dry, so I bumped up the airflow a little bit (55 up to 60 on the variac). This seems minute, but the difference is pretty huge. I also lowered the heat to 3.5 KPA 10 degrees before anticipated 1C. Then lowered to 3 KPA when rolling 1C started. I decided to try and finish 1C on this roast to see how it compared to the other two roasts. The result seemed to have a significant roast characteristic (which may not be bad). But since I'm looking for purer fruits/florals, it may not be the roast I prefer...

Cupping notes to come later...

crunchybean

Postby crunchybean » Yesterday, 11:45 am

Its been very cold relatively, so the roasts are coming out slighly different, and non have given me clear distinct smells like usual.
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Roasted Bean taste: Ethiopian, slight floral, fruity (blueberryish, faint, orgin flavor). City +

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Roasted Bean taste: Chocolate biscuit, bitter. City

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This is my immediate use and sample profile the fresh grounds smelled very milk chocolate, the taste in the cup was a bit sharp acidic, and slightly juicy. The taste was very indistinct. FC just before FC+

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Roasted Bean taste: Had a very strong deep carmel/toffee like taste, it was the most roasted (easiest to chew) of the lot. City+ to FC

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Roasted Bean taste: Kind of juicy, but more in the "Pro" coffee flavor, from my limited experieinces. Overtaken more with pleasent classic roast flavor. No acids or fruits (I'll try and let this, and the previous roast, rest the longest or maybe do another batch). FC

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Roasted Bean taste: By far the most promising. Bitter yes, highly bitter but one bean tasted exactly like grapefruit rind. And another tasted like classic Ethiopian flavors.

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EvergreenBuzzBuzz

Postby EvergreenBuzzBuzz » Yesterday, 7:54 pm

Happened to have one pound of this left to roast. Went quite well until I did my normal air adjustment post FC and this one dropped from about 18 ROR at the 9 min mark to about 11 at drop at 10:36. I see it also flattened out from about 7-9 min doing my normal adjustments. My normal pre FC dip in the gas didn't affect that. These indicate changes I could make but damn I am out. From looking at this an my background roast which was a prior roast I conclude this bean needs a bit more gas reduction going into FC, more than my normal reduction of about 40%.

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Chert

Postby Chert » Today, 12:49 am

I posted two more on my entry #11. Trying to mitigate the crash. Which how much decline of RoR per minute is a crash? I don't really know.

This bean seems to be "crashy", or is that my method?

I read Rao's blog post mentioned above and tried to follow the suggestion he makes. i'm not sure that cutting heat outside the +/- window of 45 second around start of 1C made a difference in my effort tonight. Around 7-8 points drop in C/min or 12-15 in F/min.
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EvergreenBuzzBuzz

Postby EvergreenBuzzBuzz » replying to Chert » Today, 9:04 am

Chert I recommend you try the gas dip. If you can post or DM me your .alog files to 891 and 892 I will convert to F and take a look more closely at your adjustments. 891 had less heat up front which I think may be better for this bean. With a dip and some post 8 min adjust I think you will get less crash. Also it may be that this bean is more finicky with smaller batches. My typical batch size is 540 grams in my 500 North. That yields a pound. When I get samples of 300 grams I slow the drum speed from 72 to 52. I also charge lower. Even so with the smaller mass I find most of the time that the roasts are harder to control.
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