I concur with Ryan on Heart's roasts being a particular disappointment to me the past year (I will revisit my next trip to Portland with this report that roasting has changed again since October). I did find many of their offerings in 2012 being quite good, bordering on spectacular especially the Stereo blend they offered during the end of that year. I do not know specifics about internal employee changes, but it made me think the roastmaster must have left. Their roasting changed and try as I might when I had the opportunity to have something in house or bring it home I had been disappointed since.

I need to point out here that my personal choice is always for strait espresso...and for me Barista has almost always hit the mark of the best shot I'll have when in Portland, and like Greg's experience they served me a shot of an Ethiopian that I won't ever forget. I try to hit 3 or more cafe's when I am in Portland to compare shots and particularly to critique the roasts and shots I am pulling at home.

My quest to evolve in my home roasting was nudged further this past year by a bag of an SO I purchased at a local cafe, from a Portland roaster I had never heard of. Rose Line is a small specialty roasting business (I believe he uses a 2 Kilo roaster) and the owner/roaster is Marty Lopes who previously was the coffee buyer for Barista (not at all a surprise when I tried his coffee).

The exterior bean color was extremely light yet the interior was more fully developed than I have ever experienced or seen before. I was also surprised that the grinds were "less dense" having difficulty weighing a similar amount into my baskets as with other coffees. Unfortunately I haven't had any of George Howells roasts to compare it too...possibly similar?

So I guess a roast like this makes me wonder...if the paradigm that it's all one roast for a given coffee (essentially the best roast that can be obtained for either espresso or pour over).

It's certainly a challenge for me as I do adjust profiles for specific varieties when I want it to serve as brew or espresso. I endeavor to "find" this sweet spot where the extremely light roasted coffee is fully developed internally...I think the key for me is in the application of air flow during my roasting process more than any other change I look to make.

danetrainer wrote:Rose Line is a small specialty roasting business (I believe he uses a 2 Kilo roaster) and the owner/roaster is Marty Lopes who previously was the coffee buyer for Barista (not at all a surprise when I tried his coffee).

The exterior bean color was extremely light yet the interior was more fully developed than I have ever experienced or seen before. I was also surprised that the grinds were "less dense" having difficulty weighing a similar amount into my baskets as with other coffees. Unfortunately I haven't had any of George Howells roasts to compare it too...possibly similar?

So I guess a roast like this makes me wonder...if the paradigm that it's all one roast for a given coffee (essentially the best roast that can be obtained for either espresso or pour over).

I've been wanting to try Roseline coffee but haven't yet. I should point out that they specifically offer two roast profiles, one for "drip" and another for "espresso".

John P wrote:I roast all of our espresso on site

This is my fault, but I get a little annoyed when people say things like "roast espresso". After all we're not pouring a shot into the roaster! We're roasting coffee. Do we need to change the way we roast to facilitate a specific brew method...Should 22% extraction espresso filtered and diluted to the same TDS as 22% extraction Fetco taste the same? Assume good technique.

For me personally I hardly ever drink espresso and I think it's because I've only ever had espresso which was very roasty (like a full city or more roast, Italian or Schomerian, and in the case of the latter also sour and salty), or very sour third wave espresso (intelligentsia, four barrel, sightglass, ritual, handsome and others all gave me sour shots in 2011). I have never had a decent tasting espresso extraction of a lightly roasted coffee. Maybe I should taste more espresso this year.

TomC wrote:..., that the green to yellow phase shouldn't be rushed. I believe it allows for a more thorough maillard phase and development of delicious solubles before pushing the roast so far that you rob from it's unique cultivar characteristics to imprint roast fingerprints all over it...

In your opinion, what flavors are to be expected rushing from green to yellow (let's say 4:00 yellow)? What changes come from stretching it to 5:30/6:00?

(this does lead towards the title discussion, I promise)

faustroll,

Please excuse the faux pas.

I am speaking in the common vernacular. Certainly I am roasting coffee beans. Nobody actually thinks I am slaving over a roaster full of some weird liquid espresso concoction.

I am used to spending more time educating customers than writing to those who are already educated.
It's no different when people say, "let's go for a coffee" When they all they get are lattes.

I think you might need to get out more.

John P wrote:Damon,

While it does take someone who's willing to push, learn, and create, changing espresso blends frequently is quite doable.

I roast all of our espresso on site, and I change our espresso about every 7-10 days, so I will do about 40-50 different espresso blends per year, and I never repeat. We always tell about our espresso -- name (something strange or interesting I concocted), beans, and basic tasting notes. Our customers have come to expect this.

This does two things: It allows me to educate through the cup about the vast array of flavors possible in coffee/espresso, and it gives me far more experience as a roaster. I did the single espresso blend thing for maybe the first year I was roasting, and it became boring because I wasn't learning anything new. I've been roasting over eight years now, and some several hundred espresso later, it's a hell of a lot more rewarding.

Yeah but you're an exception to the rule. The CCC shops I frequent change between two almost non-discernibly different beans. Chocolate and cherries 4EVAH!

faustroll wrote:I've been wanting to try Roseline coffee but haven't yet. I should point out that they specifically offer two roast profiles, one for "drip" and another for "espresso".

I have seen the choice on their site, but interestingly enough the initial bag I purchased had no such designation and the shop I purchased from sells to mainstream consumers that makes me think it was a "brew" roast or no such designation was being done then (July 2013). That time it was a Guatemalan Bourbon that I'm partial to seeking out...as with the El Injerto that Stumptown seems to run on short supply these years with their expansions.

When I typically shop for a pro roasted SO, I usually have in mind what origin, variety and processing I have preference too...I deviate if I've been served something I enjoy in the cafe (or if a Barista suggests something) and then I take home beans I might like.

I typically ignore "designated as espresso" because for many roasters it means "darker roasted"...not what I'm looking for, but generally it does end up to trial and error in finding a light roast suitable. Many of the roasters you tried in 2011 for light roasted espresso I completely agree on...some exceptions here and there on a particular coffee and roast.

I kind of agree. I have my espresso blend, which I change multiple times a year, though the challenge is keeping it in the same flavor neighborhood while cycling beans in and out; and I have my SO coffees, however...I personally brew every SO coffee as espresso AND drip, and I don't buy the concept that you need a drastically different roast for each.

faustroll wrote:Do we need to change the way we roast to facilitate a specific brew method...

In my experience, yes. This doesn't necessary mean I only roast dark for espresso, but I do deliberately change the way I roast for it. My profile, when roasting a coffee intended for espresso (regardless of roast degree), will be different than roasting coffee for non-espresso. The coffee I'm dropping into the roaster is also dependent on if I'm roasting for espresso. This might entirely be due to my espresso machine.

endlesscycles wrote:In your opinion, what flavors are to be expected rushing from green to yellow (let's say 4:00 yellow)? What changes come from stretching it to 5:30/6:00?

(this does lead towards the title discussion, I promise)

Pet theories: I think a 4 minute "yellow" (depending on charge weight, coffee freshness [moisture], and a dozen other variables notwithstanding) can work, but only for slightly lighter density coffees, that also exhibit prominent, specific flavors that I find delicious enough to stand on their own, even when pushed just into but often not even thru the end of 1C. If these don't need the envelope of well developed caramels and tip toe'ing into distillates surrounding them to achieve stardom, then why include them? Give me a thin slice of flawless plain New York Style Cheesecake any day, over Cheesecake Factory's Snicker bar toffee crunch Oreo crusted caramel pie.

Flip that, I take a harder/denser bean, one that has a tighter grip on it's internal moisture, or one that has it's best characteristics when you can knit together its very dynamic snappy flavors with a bit more roast development (wether that be taming a bit of aggressive acidity or something else) and use that coffee to run thru an ever so slightly extended or "stretched" drying phase of 5:45- as far as 6:15 in some cases. Since by doing this, I feel confident that my internal bean structure is more thoroughly "yellow" and ready to ramp quickly into the development phase, and not lagging behind due to a more pronounced gradient of moister, "greener" bean internals relative to a dry exterior on a quicker "drying" phase profile.

If then, my denser, harder bean can be moved thru a development phase/ramp with more even development throughout, I am more confident that I can take that bean to a quicker finish and still get excellent developed volatile aromatics and overall better results without running the risk of any overt toasting of the bean surface.

It's better in my mind to have the beans in the last third of the roasting phase as short as possible. For most of my coffees, little benefit can be achieved by taking a roast too long, regardless of whether I chose a lower ET profile. I want to get them roasted as light as possible, as fast as possible, but thoroughly developed, and the only way to unify these three variables is to drag the "drying" phase longer on certain types of coffee. Prime rib is most delicious when it's 90% rare in the middle and a dark caramely spicy crust, most coffee is not.

I have more thoughts on this topic, but longer posts often aren't better posts.

Pardon me if I'm asking something obvious..does this 'increasing solubility/more development' mean no more puckering shot (less acidic), or just the same acidic shot with a tad more sweetness to balance it? Certainly it appeared to me, and I believe many others, third wave=sour shots basically.